Hi, everyone. This is Patricia and this is Elisa. Welcome to the Exile Project. we're so glad you're here. Today we want to talk about why bad things happen to good people, I remember being in a situation where we were all supposed to write down a question we would want to ask God, you know? And it was the first thing that came to my mind, and I feel like it often is one of those questions that it feels like there's so many answers for but none of them ever feel likeHi, everyone. This is Patricia and this is Elisa. Welcome to the Exile Project. we're so glad you're here. Today we want to talk about why bad things happen to good people, I remember being in a situation where we were all supposed to write down a question we would want to ask God, you know? And it was the first thing that came to my mind, and I feel like it often is one of those questions that it feels like there's so many answers for but none of them ever feel like they're quite good enough. I similarly was in a room. I was listening to a debate between Tim Keller and an atheist, and I'm so sorry. I can't remember the atheists saying, forgive me, but they were debating philosophically about God, and they took questions in the end. And that was the first question someone brought up about like that's their cornerstone of why to not believe in God is because if there was a God who was good, bad things wouldn't happen. Especially bad things wouldn't happen to good people because because at the end of the day, if God is good and just then it would be fair. Life would be fair. Theoretically, I think I think that's the thinking,

it kind of actually makes me think about. This amazing fable told by Robert Capon about an oyster having similar questions, actually. from his book, The Romance of the World One Man's Love Affair with Geology. But essentially the story is there's this oyster who has a very limited world view. You would think, you know, he's an oyster. He doesn't know a lot about movement, but he does know a lot more about movement than the rock he sits next to. he spent a good amount of his life just sitting there and reflecting out of this limited worldview and often making comments that are very negative towards rocks. And finally, the rock is just like, you know what? I can't take it anymore. I'm tired of listening to you say all this stuff. And starfish actually can move a lot more than oysters. And they have all these jokes and you're the best of them. And then the oyster, becomes depressed because it's not just because people think starfish think less than oysters, but because, honestly, it's such a challenging idea that that that his understanding is limited. Mm hmm. Right. Right. And so the real challenge is like trying to wrap his head around another perspective, another way that the world is Mm hmm. And in the midst of this dark night of the oyster soul, God, who I imagine to have a heavy New York accent, shows up and begins to talk about movement and begins to talk about ballerinas and basketball players and squirrels running through the trees. And then at the end of this conversation or this sort of God monologue, he says, listen, it's almost sundown. And I have to set a good example. As I said, your basic problem is your point of view. There really are these great moves, but you unfortunately don't know for motion if you're going into business as the world's first philosophical oyster. It's okay by me. But just so you think, you shouldn't get it all wrong. I'll give you one piece of advice. Think very carefully. Remember that all this stuff is. But it can't possibly be the way you think. Or to turn it around the way you think about things. We'll never be exactly the same as the way they are. But enough. I really have to run. Mazel tov. And then God leaves and there's oyster sitting there thinking about what he knows and what he doesn't know, and then trying to put it together in some sort of, like, framework for knowing. And so he's like, there's motion and oyster can distinguish two sorts. The first is being moved. Both the stone and myself can be moved. The second is moving on one's own. It's like this, like huge, you know, that was stone. Can't do this at all. I can move parts of myself. So then it's like, okay, starfish move, ballerina's move. Starfish attack oysters starfish attack ballerina. So he's trying to use what he does know limited to the limited amount of knowledge about starfish to try to understand now what God suggested to him about ballerinas. And, you know, then he's got like starfish move, ballerinas, move. Starfish are deadly to oysters are ballerinas deadly to oysters? And after this like line of reasoning that I would imagine would take an oyster a relatively long, long time. He kind of comes up with this list, the chief properties of a ballerina, a mobility like the starfish is. But he's assuming it's better be in vulnerability to starfish it's they're probably immune can't be injured by starfish. See loveliness. On faith he's taking it on God's word. Like ballerinas are lovely and deadliness possible, but he's not certain. So he he ends with this, like, hilarious list about ballerinas. And then the story ends. And Robert Capon basically is like, the very first thing that has to happen when you talk about theology is that we have to recognize we're not talking about God, but we're talking about words. Mhm. And I do think this wraps back in because like when we're talking about why do bad things happen to good people, I think the question isn't initially about God, it's about what we think the world is about like, yeah, you know, and I think there's this idea of like God's in control. Mm hmm. And so then and then. And then it's like, well, then everything's God's fault. Right? Or, you know, gods specifically allowing things to happen or, you know, so it becomes, I think, theological first when it maybe should be just anthropological first. I agree.

I think that when we think about The early Israelites. the Hebrew people who are coming out of Egypt like they're liturgical be very impoverished. They were in Egypt in the midst of Egyptian worship, of Egyptian gods. But we don't have any prescribed worship in Egypt that the Jewish people were practicing. I mean, we don't write all the prescribed worship comes out. So, you go from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Right, right. Which even even in the midst of that, we know that there was somewhat of a polytheistic situation, because right there's that moment where Rachel sitting on the family idol. So then they're in Egypt and then they're coming out of Egypt, but it's not like they have the Bible. Right. Right. I often have to remind myself one of those like mind blowing moments in reading through the stories of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is they didn't know God. God knew them. God picked them. God is in the process of revealing who he is to them. But they didn't have anything before that to be like the God of the Jew. There were no Jews before that. And so so much of the interactions that God's having in Genesis with these people, his calling into intimacy, really, it's almost in a in a similar way, conversations about starfish and ballerinas because it's like, you know, we have these theoretical understandings of other gods. Right. And it's like we're trying to make sense of what we don't know by what we kind of know. So it's like, you know, and both are incredibly limited. So it's like, okay, other gods, one child sacrifice. Do you write veil is the agricultural god. he's being worshiped in order for there to be bountiful crops. So it's like, can Yahweh also produce bountiful crops that, you know, in this world everybody would have had not just a god, but a bajillion gods. Gods you prayed for for well being gods. You played for victory in battle, gods you prayed for so that your crops wouldn't fail. like the way that they knew made sense of the world was through worship. Yeah, but obviously it wasn't to Yahweh. So the question is like, what does it mean to be a worshiping people, you know, first? Right, right. And they don't know. And they don't know.

We're starting with the question like, why does God let bad things happen? there's so many questions there to unpack. One of them being like, what do you expect of God? What do you expect your life to look like? There's just so many things to think about but I think that a lot of times we rush, right? And to that because we're like, well, if God was good and if if God, if there is a God who is who has some level of control, if not ultimate control, then, yeah, this stuff wouldn't be happening. Mm hmm. You know, he would do a better job at protecting or keeping the peace or something like that. Yeah, I think it's such a good point. there's this, like, prosperity gospel message that's kind of like you give. your time and your tithe to God and it's, pretty transactional. you fulfill your part of the deal and then God fulfills his part, which is blessing you. Right. You know, and I think that regardless of how much we subscribe to that, I in some ways believed it not that I thought God was going to make me rich if I said my prayers every day. But like I did believe that, you know, there's all these verses, there's all this stuff in the Bible about like you follow God, you do the right things. You, worship God solely. Mm hmm. And he. He he keeps you from harm. That's like in the Psalms. And so then when. When we experienced, like, different places in our own lives or in the lives of people we loved, just like. Suffering happening. You know, it was like, wait, this framework doesn't work. No, absolutely not. I know. I think about the one I used to claim all the time over myself was if you if you obey your parents, if you honor your mother and your father, you will you know, your life will be long. Things will go well for you. And I was like, done. Now I can do. I think I've come to the place of like,

the Bible is for wisdom. And so when you have a statement like this, there generally it's like you will you live a long life because your parents will kill you. Maybe that's not quite that. I think that it is those sort of like trying to make sense and starfish with ballerinas because going back to like the people who were writing the Bible, like they understood reality in a very specific way.

God frees them from the Egyptians, right? And there's like these songs of worship, the first recorded praise music heads, you know, are like, I will sing into the Lord. For he has conquered victoriously the horse in the rider he's thrown into the sea. So you have God. The first things they know about God is that He's a victorious warrior, right? It's like this less he's able to conquer their enemies. That's something they know about God. And then they end up in the wilderness and they learn other things about God, right? Like you know, they're given these commandments about how God wants to be worshiped, which, interestingly enough, is a lot of interpersonal responsibility. you know, God isn't just like give me a bajillion sacrifices. He's like, hey, actually, you have to honor your parents. Yeah. And, don't, don't like somebody else's house or woman or something, you know? So it's like the way God is setting up relationship with him. Yeah. It's very interpersonal in terms of like how they relate with one another. So that's a huge moment. And then you end up too with like God not being worshiped through an image if you think about the world that they had just come out of, right? It was very image based. I mean, everywhere you go, there's like different images of I mean, that's the whole like the ten plagues being actually right. Like a showdown, right? Right. Between the God of Israel and all of the gods, all of those different gods. And there's a visualization of what those guys look like, but you're always invisible and it's, you know, because he's like, hey, people are supposed to carry my glory, right? but point being, eventually they get to the promised land, you know, and there's this other question that arises It's like, okay, so God is able to save us from our enemies, right? And he cares about how we treat one another, but can he help us grow crops? Right. So then, you know, in the world that they live in, everything is like the they don't understand weather patterns. They don't understand, right. You know, cause and effect is cause. They are like, well, we did this. I remember doing that. as a as a young parent of like, well, if I do this and Iraq are ten times this way and they do, and then it put her down to sleep all night and you're like, no, I'm not. Absolutely. I mean, I know. And I think that that's sort of how they're thinking here. Okay, well, we did this one and we had a banger, Cropsey said. So let's do it exactly the same way we're going to. We're going to, you know, sacrifice here and do this here. And then we're going to yeah, it's really cause and effect base when it comes to totally and in that world, I mean like that's how everybody thought.

we've actually been wanting to introduce this idea of Deuteronomy like thinking verses job like resolve this sort of like cause and effect. Taking the law and making it formulaic is kind of is is what comes out of Deuteronomy and it actually ends up being the perspective that the Old Testament is, based if I follow the laws of Deuteronomy, well, things will go well for me. And so then we get to the exile and they're carrying this Deuteronomy like thinking they're looking back through their whole history and they're saying, okay, when we lost a war we weren't on honoring God. Like they're they're analyzing the kings that follow God's way and they're analyzing the kings that didn't follow God's way. And they're saying, okay, when the kings followed the law we kept the covenant there was no idol worship or the widows and orphans and the aliens were taking care of. Then things would go well for us. And then when those things were forsaken, things would go bad for us. And so they were carrying this very Deuteronomy law based thinking. And I think that we actually still carry a lot of that, which is the thing that is being deconstructed today. Because at the end of the day, the Deuteronomy law cause and effect thinking doesn't hold up, especially in the moments when trauma happens, especially in the hardest moments, because you're like, Did I do anything bad enough to deserve this?

the Heart of Job is like I didn't do anything bad enough to deserve this. Yeah. What is going on? I have this thing that comes in monthly for the kids called PJ Library. It's a it's a set of Jewish storybooks. and probably once a year we get this story and it changes the name. Sometimes it's it's Benjamin's blanket. David's blanket. And his grandfather has made him this blanket. He loves it so much. It's his favorite thing. But then he starts to wear it out. And so then his grandfather changes it into a vest. He loves it. It's his favorite thing. He wears it out. His father has. His grandfather, who is a tailor, by the way, changes it into a necktie. It's his favorite thing. He wears it out. His his grandfather changes it into a pocket square. it's his favorite thing. He wears it out. He his grandfather changes it into a button. And then one day the button pops off and he's distraught because his very favorite item is gone and his grandfather's goes. But, you know, it can never be lost a story. And then they start to tell the story of Benjamin's like it and it's so sweet and we get this it's an old Jewish folktale that and so we get a version of this book every 18 months or so, and it's actually one my kids favorite. But any book comes to mind. It's like a different telling. It's the same story, but sometimes it'll be David and sometimes it'll be set in modern times, and sometimes it'll be set in like pre-World War Two European Jewish communities. So it's really, really cool. But you know, that's the thing that story being told again and again from different right. And the job is like that job is this story of job has been passed down through centuries. I think Tim Mackey said it was probably a play that they did and so once it was finally recorded, it would have been a known story and it wasn't an actual, literal story. It was a folk story of sorts to have this conversation about suffering. And and so what I think is interesting and when we were listening to this teaching by Walter Brueggemann the Heart of Job is like I didn't do anything bad enough to deserve this. And so you're moving into the resolve of like, right if I don't follow the law, things will go badly for me to actually then being so honest and open with God to be like, no way. There's no way I did anything bad enough to deserve this suffering. And so you have two different questions. Yeah. I love that perspective so much more because I feel like I've really struggled with the Book of Job and often it becomes like, well, God gives and God takes away like right. part was like, wait, how could that be? Like, what's how is it good? You know, and obviously I'm reflecting on the fact that God's goodness is beyond my limited knowing. But it's just like there's things for one, the beginning of the story, you have this almost like pantheon of The heavens where all these people are mingling about and then say in awe, like the accuser's there. And then it's like, Wait, wasn't here to test out of heaven. So then it's like, now he's in heaven. Just like he can walk around and be like, Hey, God, you know? You know what? I bet Jobe would curse you if things fell apart for him. Like part of me is, like, that seems problematic. Like, not that I have, spent a ton of time, thinking about. How have you read them? I kind of. Right, right, right. But it's just like that feels problematic. And then God's like, yep, I'll take that bet. Yeah. Let's just, like, just like fuck up jobs like and see if they'll still worship me. write, And then and we'll see and we'll see what happens. And part of me is like, I don't love that as a reflection of God's character. you know, there's that moment where where Jesus is standing with Peter and he's like, the devil is trying to lift you, but I'm standing in the gap for you. Like that to me is the heart of God, right? Like that to me is like there is, an enemy out to prowl steel and destroy. Right. But but God is like, I'm standing in the gap for you that feels like God, right? But God being like, yeah, let's do it. And then it's like all his kids die. It's just this insane moment of, earthquakes and fire and storms, and everything's destroyed, and then his body is destroyed, and then his friends are cursing him. Right? And then at the end of the day, he is really pissed, right? You know, and then God just like basically is like you weren't there at the beginning of creation and somehow it ends I just feel like it just like ends in this sort of unresolved place Right. And yet we use Jobe as like, while the Bible like sometimes God allows suffering, like the Bible models, God allowing suffering. And part of me is like, I don't think we can use the Bible like that. I don't think that's what the story's about. I don't think so. I kind of love the way you're you know, you're suggesting or like pastoring is just an entirely new way of wrap your head around suffering because I think that that's freeing. in my mind what we're witnessing here with sort of like going quickly from Deuteronomy to Jobe and spoiler, we're going to go right to Jesus. But going from Deuteronomy me to Jobe, it's an evolution of thought. It's like, okay, well, we've got this thing figured out. We've got the law. Great lockdown here, A plus B or C, and then and then you have this. This community traumatic event that they're like, could we really have done something so bad that we that we were that we were meant to be annihilated, are our land stolen and totally wiped out. And so then you have this evolution of thought. What I think is interesting and the kind of the heart in all this is, We have somehow in evangelical America, taken Deuteronomy thinking and put it on Jesus. And Jesus has been like, no, no, no, no, no, no. It is not that. The heart of it is that the world is broken. And I am with you. Mm hmm. As I've been thinking about this question and these sort of ideas of the law and then the question of suffering and job. the point of the church and the church culture falling apart is is this is this moment is this question of the calculus doesn't work. And now what do I do? Mm hmm.

Walter Bergman talks a lot about the Bible as literature, which is just a really important point, because I think we try to honor it by putting it in this place of being God's word, where it's like it doesn't behave like literature. It's interesting to reflect on the people telling these stories, the purpose behind the stories, the audience. That's there. You know who'd be listening to these stories initially? And I do think that deconstruction in illiterate in a literary framework, what really began to challenge the intent and even the the reading the meaning of the written word, because it's like, do you find the meaning in the intent of the author? Do you find it in the interpretation of the reader? And I feel like we've been on the side of the readers interpretation for so long that to just pause and be like, you know, there's no way to really know really the intent of the reader. But we can read into that a bit more by understanding the history, by understanding how literature and ancient contexts work, we can, you know, reflect on the world that was being shaped. Yeah. By these kinds of stories. my kids and I. I went to Egypt a couple of years ago. We're studying ancient civilizations and we went to see the pyramids and we were standing at the edge of the Red Sea. And it's actually super big You can't see across. And my kids were like, Do you think God really part in that? And I was standing there and I was like, you know. There's sort of a couple of different kinds of way to understand truth. Like, I think God's capable of separating this water for sure. Mm hmm. And that I think I was definitely capable of doing it. But. But. But the fact that this story of God parting the sea has shaped a people for, like, 5000 years. Mm hmm. it's, truth beyond just fact. Yeah, right. We want reproducible experiments. We're coming to the text with, like, rational understanding. We want science or scientific facts, right? And that's not necessarily how the Bible behaves, but it's like, regardless of whether or not the like it's like that idea of like, is it true? It's like what it has done. A truth of this story is that it has shaped a people. Yeah. And preserved people. And we're still standing on the edge of this. Of this water. Yeah. Talking about this saving grace of God. So it is kind of an interesting thing to think about, like, you know, looking at the story of Nova and being like, how do we how do we wrestle with it knowing that it actually does get destroyed? You know, it's like it's like how how do you read beyond sort of the facts of the story? Right.

Back to the first thing in a conversation about oysters and starfish and ballerinas. It's like anthropology. What are we talking about when we talk about being human, being, people, suffering marriage, sexuality? It's like these things are not universal and they and they are not static through time. It changes like all changes. So before we try to say we know what God wants, you know, I think it's important to understand the context we live in and the sort of words we're using to describe our reality. Right. and when we find like the through line the heart that doesn't change. You can see when you put it in context, when you when you read it as, as it is, as well as we can as it's intended from the writer, from the author. And then we see then the through line that is applicable throughout generations, which is, you know, like we said, like be aware how you're treating each other, you know, worship God alone. I don't know, try to think of other ones. But like, you know what the the definition in the heart of what love is taking care of the most vulnerable. Like these are the themes that we see throughout the entire Bible and we think we see them. When you put the Bible in its own context and tradition, the best that we we are up to how well read we are at this moment. And and that's the stuff that we can take. And and then but it does become when you try to implement that today, it becomes messy and hard because that means we have to like in real time do inclusion and disagreement. And we have to make sure that we're taking in lots of different perspectives of what it means to be a person in this moment. And it's possible. I think we do it. I know we're not perfect by any stretch, but like we, you know, one of our I think one of both of our big tools is is trying to be really cognizant of of hearing from a lot of different perspectives in this moment of what it means to be a human And that means like different race perspectives, different sexuality, gender, we try to be mindful of. Of of. That we're embodying or that we are. That we're listening to. Lots of different. Experiences of being human in this moment especially, I think you do a really good job at that, especially as when it comes to authorship. Like you you you read a lot a lot of different perspectives.

A few episodes back, I grabbed a bunch of old pair journals and just bringing up how our prayer journeys change. And then as I was reading them, I was like, Oh my gosh, it feels like I don't even know really who I am in these notebooks. that led to me deep diving a bunch of these old journals. And as I was reading through journals from like 13 years ago, I just felt really sad because a lot of it is like me journaling out, being a new postpartum mother. Yeah. And not knowing how to just say I'm sad, right? You know, I'm isolated and I'm lonely and I'm having a hard time and it's impacting like my relationship with with Gareth and it's making, you know, and instead of it being like, like I'm going through a really rough patch, I'm constantly doing this like navel gazing thing, although it's not my navel gazing at it's my heart. I'm just like, my heart's in the wrong place, my heart's in the wrong place. And I look back and I'm just like, Oh, I wish I could just, like, reach through the past and just, like, pat myself on the back and just be like, Girl, this is so hard. life is messy and hard and complicated, and sometimes you just got to, like, take a deep breath. Yeah. And lean in I can't tell you how many women I've talked to over the years that will start to kind of describe a way that they're hurting or struggling and then be like, but I know, you know, God, God is going to give me everything I need to get through this. And, you know, like and you instantaneously spiritualized it for the comfort of someone else like me, especially me when I was a pastor. people expect me to offer them some kind of spiritual guidance or or truth about God in that moment that will explain their situation or hopefully maybe offer them comfort, and I probably did that a lot in the beginning, I'm being honest because I felt like that was the right thing to do in the name of Jesus, in the name of church But as I learned a lot and went through my own suffering and I was exposed to. I mean, I know Jesus is with you, but this sucks, you know, and this is super hard and you don't have to have bandwidth for it. You know, you don't have to be happy that you're suffering right now. You don't have to be content in it. It can just suck. And also, like, maybe God's not trying to teach you something, it just sucks. It's just maybe God didn't pick this for you. Exactly right. Maybe life is just hard and sucks like a good amount of the time. Yeah. And if we lean into that then that's I think where we begin to find joy. Yeah. Because then the simple things in life, you know, we can enjoy, you know, this conversation here or that beautiful sunset because we're, we're living in this expectation of things will be hard and I'll appreciate the good things when they come. Yeah. Versus like, why aren't there more good things or why is my life, you know, it's like I just think that it's a different posture. Yeah. Because it ends up being this idea of, like, proving to yourself or proving to God that you either do or don't deserve this. And ultimately, it's a shame. That's shame, you know? And when we can consciously release shame and just be like, sometimes life sucks and God is here, you know, we, we see God's eyes different We experience his presence different, we hear his voice different. You know, everything shifts because we have released that shame and we can be present with ourselves and others. That's good. Yeah. I remember we were traveling and we woke up and we know and I had this like have her, her face was like completely trashed. It was like this really weird rash. And I think we put some sort of cream or something on it. It started to get worse. We were freaking out. She just was like very self-conscious about her face. She was wearing this, like, scarf over part of her face. And I remember that night she just had this breakdown and she was just like, Why me? Why do bad things always happen to me? And I just was like, Yeah, girl, that sucks, you know? It wasn't like, this is the moment to be like, not all. Like, you know, like other words, like, you know, like, you know, or like you're not being grateful because remember that you're on a nice trip and like, have a it was like there was no mention of her heart. There was no mention of the state of her heart. It was not a teaching moment. I just, sat there with her and I was like, Oh, girl, yes, this sucks. Yeah. yeah, I think, like learning how to just sit in the in the frustration and the grief and the pain and not try to, like, give a pat answer or any of right. Because, I mean, sometimes there's no answers. This happen to have an answer. And there was a small piece of pollen stuck in her ear, which we found after we came back to the States and a pediatrician pulled it out. But like, you know, but for a long time, it was like, what? What's happening? And there wasn't an easy answer. And you're sitting in the tension of like, I don't know how to say I can't fix this, you know? And I think that life sometimes it's a waiting game.

I've been I've been in a, you know, situations often at the coffee shop where there's things out of my control that I can't. And it's each day it's like putting out fires or trying to fix problems and then only to find out like the next day there's another problem. And sometimes it just feels like a marathon, you know, right? Like you're running uphill right in it. And then you get to the end of the hill only to find out it's another hill. Like, there's no there's no down. There's no downslope. And I think that. Really. It's a mindset thing, though, because it's like. If if we feel like there's a meaning in our lives and meaning in our suffering, that it's for something we can we can do it well, we can handle it, you know. I think the thing that's hard is when it feels pointless, right? You know, when it feels like a waste of our time, right? You know? Yeah. Go back and forth between being like. I'm going to look back in a few years at a decade spent in this little coffee shop. And one part of me is like. It could feel like a waste of my life if I told the story one way. Right. Or it could feel like an amazing opportunity if I am careful about telling the story a different way. So it really is like, is it something that's sapping my life? Or is it something that's giving me giving me meaning and relationship and a place in my community to love and to serve. Right. Because both technically, both of those things could be true. Right? I can see. Yeah, no, I absolutely can see where both could be true. I'll never let you tell that story. I thought you went through a decade. Oh, my God. I mean, I. I know probably a lot of you have been to roots, but for those of you who haven't. it is the warmest, most famous night in our neighborhood. And, um, and even last night, we were at an event where Patricia saw seven people that she knew in the community because of roots. we, we use the phrase church in the wild a lot. Like that is what Roots is. Roots is this wild, temple in the wilderness and seed of all that is beautiful and it's true. So you noted, Well, so, Larry, is that we're practicing exactly what we're talking about, because you are in this moment of being like. Yeah. This is my whole life. Just wild for no reason. Because I'm home schooling and running a coffee shop and, you know, whatever else. Or is there something deeper? And. Yeah, and that's the most beautiful thing is like, I can only only empathize with how wild it must feel from your perspective in your body. But from my perspective, it's this wildly holy adventure. And our whole neighborhood is better for it. And. it's bringing in these multiple perspectives when you feel out of your depth, you know. And sometimes it's just as simple as this. This must feel crazy. I'm so sorry that it feels that way. And then sometimes it's like, Well, this is how I see it. Not, you know, or I can't believe you feel that way, because I see so differently, you know? But all with understanding, empathy and grace with like someone else's felt experience When we took over the coffee shop. Like there's all these sort of business truisms, like don't start a business with your family, your friends. And I was like, But I'm doing this for Jesus. So it's going to be different. And it actually wasn't different. It's just always a really bad headache. Really hard, really hard idea. Yes. You know, so it was like, Jesus, does it make it easier? You did not make it easier. Like it did not make it easier at all. So like, yeah. So initially you were like asking me to move on and then it started to be less fun. and you know how it's interesting how metaphors really are. So all of a sudden this imagery of like a ball and chain, that's started to be my image of the God I can take this thing, you know? And yeah, I remember it was like August 2019 and my mom called me and she's like, I had this dream and you were crying and you were really upset. And I was like, Oh, that's real. That wasn't a dream. That was a dream. That was like me today. And she was like, I think maybe I should come visit you. And I was like, Well, yes, please. And I just remember it was like I now six years out, I've learned sort of like the calendar rhythm, but at the time it was still new to it. So it was like people leaving and all of a sudden me working like two weeks in a row, usually in the beginning of August, usually around my birthday, which I'm not much of a birthday person, but it was like, you know, so I woke up, open the coffee shop on my birthday and I was like, and I remember leaving and my mom's there and the kids and the thing I wanted to go to too was Central Library. I loved the library and I was like, We're going to library. My mom's like, I kind of think it's going to rain. It's like it's not going to rain. And then we ended up walking home in like a torrential downpour. It was raining so much. It was like we were standing in a super water pressure shower. Oh, like water coming down. And it was one of those moments where. We just started laughing because it was so ridiculous and it was just like, you know, like it's already been a hard season. It's already been a hard day and now we're drenched. The thing about that moment was my mom coming. She didn't necessarily make it better, but she sat in the hardness with me. You know? Yeah. And we just. We laughed together and, like, she couldn't fix it, but she could sit in it with me. And she started to do that. She made a regular practice of, like, every other week. She came from the summer of 2018 to March 2020. And I honestly don't think I could have survived going into the pandemic as a small business owner. Wow. If I hadn't had like that that season of someone sitting with me in the hard arm. That's really beautiful.

I've mentioned a lot that I've always been anxious and. I struggled. I struggled a lot in middle school. Like it was really acute in middle school. I would sleep on my sister's floor every night because I was just too anxious to sleep in my own room. And you were in Guam? Yes, sir. Yep. I went and we went when I started my fifth grade year. And then I was in private school for one year. And then we were homeschooled. Sixth, seventh, eighth. And then I started public school. And I think the freshman year in public school was really hard too, because. That's hard. Like freshman year is hard and going. Never having been in public school before was hard, and so I was pretty anxious the entire time we were on Guam. But it was really acute in middle school. I think it got a little bit better in high school when I got really active, like I was in pool every play I could get my hands on. I was in the debate club, I was in mock trial. Like I kept myself really busy, which is how I coped with, you know, it was an anxious that's how I could stay busy and it would possibly get I know it would get worse in the summers when I was less busy. And so but during these times, you know, I very rarely voiced my anxiety to my my parents because I didn't have language for it. if I were to articulate it back then, I would have said, I'm I'm scared all the time. I'm I'm maybe I would use the word worried, but it's more it was more gripping fear, like a lot of my fears were that my my parents would die. My sister would die, I would die, that there was no God. It was a with a lot of like spiritual fear. And, so I would have these just like, really? Dark days where I was just so freaked out all the time but couldn't articulate it because the few times that I did try to voice this to my parents, my mom, who's a very practical woman who's amazing she really is so amazing. She's a super practical woman. And and also just like super steeped in the evangelical experience, she was like, well, God is sovereign. so if God takes me, that's okay. That's what's going to happen. Not the answer for an anxious ten year old yet. and my mom also gave me all the resources she had, which were which was wonderful. You know, she tried she would she I remember her one of her big things was say the name of Jesus, because in her mind, if I was fearful, that was a of the enemy. And so in her theology, where the name of Jesus is spoken, that enemy couldn't be. So essentially I so I was taught to say the name of Jesus. My anxiety would abate, didn't happen. And so I would be in my bed at night, full body, sweat, anxiety, and just being like, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, over and over and over again and still just like, full of anxiety. And so it turned into me just like begging God to take all of my fear away. And and then every time I learned about, like, some sort of story of God promising peace in my young life, I would feel shame because I would be like, I don't have any peace. What am I doing wrong? And so it became this real, like my, you know, my whole spiritual life in middle school and high school became just, like, begging God to take this away from me. And it didn't go away. So I had this really visceral experience of asking Jesus desperately to meet me and help me and be present with me and feeling nothing. And. And as I was processing this with my therapist, you know, four or five years ago, she would always remind me. She was like, I would be like, God, abandon me. And She would say it wasn't God. It was your it was your family. You needed more emotional support. You needed more emotional tools. And I was like, I hear you says it's my it's God. And it felt really true at the end of that. And she's not wrong, by the way. She's not wrong. I needed more emotional tools. I needed more emotional support. I needed a lot of things. I needed more emotional language that she she was not wrong. But in that moment, I felt that she was wrong because I was like, I didn't ask my parents for help because I couldn't. I asked Jesus and he did nothing. And so my felt experience was that I was abandoned by God. And what do you do with that when, like, the truth is that God never leaves you, but you felt abandoned by God? And so I was trying to process through this rationally without going back into the felt experience. And one night I, I and this is after the accident. This is after a lot of things like everything's really raw at this point. And I was so tired. I had put the kids to bed. I had gone to sleep, they had gotten up again, which children are I want to do? And I was rocking Elizabeth on my on the floor in her room. And I had been like singing and reading and coat and begging for them to go to sleep for like 2 hours. I was so physically exhausted, emotionally exhausted. And finally it ended up me like holding Elizabeth, who was too big at this point to be held like this, rocking her and praying. And all of a sudden my rage got the better of me. And I don't rage. I'm not a rage person. I'm not in touch with my emotions like that or I wasn't. I'm better more now. But I was never in touch with anger, really. That was something that was that was put away for me. And I'm holding Elizabeth, and I just snap and I'm praying. I was like, I have been here for 2 hours asking you to help my children sleep so that I can go back to bed and you're nowhere to be found. Where the hell are you? This is and. And automatically. I was back. I was I was 11 and 12 again. And I was begging him for help and he was nowhere to be found. And I was so angry and I was like, again, this is it. You leave me when I need you the most. And I'm asking you, there is no one else here to ask. I can ask no one else. You're the only one I have. And you're doing nothing. Nothing. And Elizabeth finally passes out. And she's so tired. And she I put her back in her bed and I just sit there with that feeling in your body of like kind of total release and feeling depleted. And I'm like, not going back into prayer. Sort of like, giving God the silent treatment. And I go back and I finally crawl back into bed and sleep. And the next morning I was walking to work and I put worship music on. I don't actually usually do that. and I think it was sort of like a peace offering. I think it was my way of entering back in to noticing his presence after raging at him and feeling slightly ashamed about it. Right. And I started and I didn't even I don't even think I started praying. I didn't I just was listening to this worship song. And and all of a sudden I got this, like, video image in my mind. And I don't usually get pictures. I don't ever get pictures for myself. And I got this, like, video image and it was, it was like as if it was a modern dance performance. And I was standing in the middle of the stage and the stage was set like my fifth grade classroom, which was the the first year I was in school in Guam. It was a really hard year and it was the year that really shifted everything for me because it was so traumatic and I didn't have language and I didn't have blah blah, blah. I've now learned it is the cornerstone to a lot of this. And I'm standing in the middle very still in the middle of my fifth grade classroom. And it's as if everything is dancing around me, as if the spirit is dancing around. And he brings my fifth grade teacher over to me and like has her face me and she, like, dips her head and turns away. And then he brings my, my, my, my mom over and she and she faces me and she and she dips her head and turns away and he does it with my my dad and he. And it's as if all the adults in my life he would bring over and face me as if he's he's as if he's showing them my need and they can't see it. It's like their eyes are blank, they can't see me, and they turn away. And then he brings my sister over. Sorry, guys. I always cry when I tell this person. And he brings my sister over and she stays. And her eyes are looking at my eyes. I just. I was crying because my sister saved my life. I would sleep on her floor. She's the only one who knew the depth of my anxiety. And and her just like she didn't have any resources for me. She didn't have emotional language. She didn't have tools. She was just there. And she was the embodied presence of the living God to me through those times that I think we might have been for each other. I don't know. I'd like to think that about when in that moment, first of all, the access point was vulnerability with God, with like finally meeting him in the anger that I was carrying, him not being honest about. And the second thing was, it's like sometimes we can't see the creative ways God meets the needs we have. And, and they feel imperfect because they are like God's ideal. For me, growing up as a child would be completely, holistically taken care of with all the tools that I need and the emotional support the child needs. And that didn't happen for me. And yet he would not leave me alone and he wouldn't leave me forsaken. And it's imperfect because it was imperfect. But it didn't mean he wasn't there. It didn't mean he wasn't listening. It didn't mean he wasn't providing and. That experience. And in that when he was when God was showing me this beautiful dance around my young child self, it was with No, I told you so. There was no shame in it. It was this beautiful picture of like I. I hear your anger and it is so righteous. It's totally okay. And I get it. And you. You have every right to feel this way. Can I just show you where I was? And I think that's a lot of it. When we sit in each other's pain and we look back or we or we sit in it and we look at the present, we can be curious together of like how we can notice God's presence. Because I do believe at the end of the day, through all these experiences, that God is always present and sometimes it can. Take being honest about our feelings or I don't know. It's going to take some creativity to notice what that looks like of his his comfort in these and these moments. Yeah. That's so beautiful.

I just think it's such an important story. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. I. It's really been a pathway for me into. Yeah. Being and being myself vulnerable with God and then sitting with other people and their vulnerability or even inviting other people in their vulnerability. Like I try to encourage everyone. Like, do you need to be angry with God? Because you can do that. I think some people are super comfortable with the idea. quite a lot of people that are like nervous to be angry in front of the God of the universe. And I get that.

It makes me think a little bit of the story of Jacob, like, wrestling all night with God. And and I think that there's something about that wrestling that is so important to us as humans. But yeah, I think that that idea of like, oh, I can't bring my wrestle, I can't bring my anger, frustration. I can only bring like the the the Sunday morning feelings. Yes. Right. It's like, yeah, I only can bring my adoration. as I was listening to teaching through Jacob in Bima. You know, I talk about him a lot, but Bima, Marty Solomon, he talks a lot about Jacob and his Hotspur. And he because when you look at the story of Jacob, he's not a great guy and he kind of never is a great guy. And he makes a lot of really dumb decisions. But but there's this desire to lead. There's this desire to know God, there's this. And He calls it Hotspur. And I really appreciate that because I think. There's a fondness in God for the Hotspur. And I think knowing that can be a pathway and an encouragement to be your, your, your most honest self before God. And for me it's been thinking about the idea of what's fun. God's like delight in it has given me a lot of life because, you know, not only made learning to be vulnerable before God and bring all of my emotional all the emotional spectrum before God, but also like I'm a Hotspur lady. We both are, you know, like we have a lot of desire, we have a lot of spunk, we see the world and we want to write it, I've been asked in the church setting. I like do you want, do you really want to teach the Bible or do you just want attention like your your motives or my motives are being questioned? Why? it's a means of control. But I think now as a more grounded person, I'm like, Yeah, the answer is yes, I want to lead. I want to teach the Bible and I, love performing. I am God made me a performer. Before I taught the Bible, I was an actress. Like, the answer is yes. And then to learning more about chutzpa and and how God delights. There's so much God delights and each of these, founding fathers of faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they have something that God delights in, something that God highlights, is like that that that'll get you far. You know, it makes me think about this moment in The Chosen. and Peter has quite a bit of chutzpah and you know, he's like all over the place And there's this moment where he comes to tell his wife that he's going to go follow Jesus. And it's an interesting moment because this is pre cell phone, right? You know, I think, you know, it's like it's like you've gone and there's not I mean, there might not be a lot of ways to get in touch. It's probably word of mouth. I don't know if they're literate in the way we would describe, literacy. And so she's standing there and. he's like, Are you upset that I'm going to leave? And she's like, No way. Like, of course he would see. And you know what I've always seen in you. Right. And just this idea that he's like the one who's, like, slicing off the ear of the guy or he's like, you know, he, you know, he's like this constantly living with his heart, like five feet away from his brain. You know, it just. He is, like, half forward and he gets picked. Yeah, you know, he gets picked not because, you know, he's quiet and demure and you know, it's he gets picked to build the church on. Yeah. Because of what it sounds like we're describing as chutzpa. Yeah. You know, passion. Yeah. You know, and there's room for growing in the midst of it, of course. But it's like, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just think it's interesting to think about Old Testament, Jesus, like wrestling Jacob through the night, then like in New Testament. Jesus Wrestling. Peter. Right. You know, like you have like this Israel and then this new Israel that's being built in a very similar fashion. People who are bringing the fullness of their being right into union with God. Right. We need all of us we need the Jacobs, we need the Abraham's, you know, and we need to love with our guts. And do we do? Yeah. I think that, like, that verse about, like, loving the Lord your God with all of your heart, your mind, your soul and your strength. And it's like somehow it's like but mostly your mind, you know? Right, And I feel like it's like, what? Look what it looks like to love God with your gut, with your intuition, with your passion, with your emotions. Might might not seem like the most rational thing to do sometimes. you have Jesus going to the cross, which wouldn't make sense, in the scheme of a battle strategy for you. But he chooses death in order to inaugurate resurrection life. And it's just interesting that as Jesus is building his followers, they don't all think the same way. They don't all love the same way. You know, you have people who are more thoughtful or standing to the side. And then you have people who are willing to just jump into the fray. And I don't think that one is better than the other. I think the point is, we need each other totally. We need each other if we are building a church of just people who want to stand and thoughtfully think things out, we're going to miss out. And if we are just building a church of people who are jumping into the fray, we're going to miss out. I think that the body of Christ needs us all in all of our differences and our peculiarities and our complexities, because together we image God. And I think the whole idea of like being the image of God or being the Temple of Christ, that's not something you do on your own. It's not an individual calling. It's like a corporate reality. I just want to invite you to pause and reconsider, the beautiful things that you're bringing to the table. And maybe there are things that you're comparing to other people, and you're like, I wish I was more like that. I wish I was more like that. But what if you just pause and think about Those. Peculiarities that might make you the missing link, that might make you like the key to the puzzle or the puzzle piece.

I would love to just pray for you before we go today. God, I think you that you are always near, always pursuing us, always looking at us with delight, always wanting to hold our hands and pat our backs and give us a hug when we're just feeling overwhelmed and confused and frustrated. Bored. Got to ask for new ways of seeing you. A new ways of seeing your nearness I pray, Father, for felt safety with you. by the power of your spirit. I pray that you that they would feel safe in your presence. We love you, God. they're quite good enough. I similarly was in a room. I was listening to a debate between Tim Keller and an atheist, and I'm so sorry. I can't remember the atheists saying, forgive me, but they were debating philosophically about God, and they took questions in the end. And that was the first question someone brought up about like that's their cornerstone of why to not believe in God is because if there was a God who was good, bad things wouldn't happen. Especially bad things wouldn't happen to good people because because at the end of the day, if God is good and just then it would be fair. Life would be fair. Theoretically, I think I think that's the thinking,

Unknown: it kind of actually makes me think about. This amazing fable told by Robert Capon about an oyster having similar questions, actually. from his book, The Romance of the World One Man's Love Affair with Geology. But essentially the story is there's this oyster who has a very limited world view. You would think, you know, he's an oyster. He doesn't know a lot about movement, but he does know a lot more about movement than the rock he sits next to. he spent a good amount of his life just sitting there and reflecting out of this limited worldview and often making comments that are very negative towards rocks. And finally, the rock is just like, you know what? I can't take it anymore. I'm tired of listening to you say all this stuff. And starfish actually can move a lot more than oysters. And they have all these jokes and you're the best of them. And then the oyster, becomes depressed because it's not just because people think starfish think less than oysters, but because, honestly, it's such a challenging idea that that that his understanding is limited. Mm hmm. Right. Right. And so the real challenge is like trying to wrap his head around another perspective, another way that the world is Mm hmm. And in the midst of this dark night of the oyster soul, God, who I imagine to have a heavy New York accent, shows up and begins to talk about movement and begins to talk about ballerinas and basketball players and squirrels running through the trees. And then at the end of this conversation or this sort of God monologue, he says, listen, it's almost sundown. And I have to set a good example. As I said, your basic problem is your point of view. There really are these great moves, but you unfortunately don't know for motion if you're going into business as the world's first philosophical oyster. It's okay by me. But just so you think, you shouldn't get it all wrong. I'll give you one piece of advice. Think very carefully. Remember that all this stuff is. But it can't possibly be the way you think. Or to turn it around the way you think about things. We'll never be exactly the same as the way they are. But enough. I really have to run. Mazel tov. And then God leaves and there's oyster sitting there thinking about what he knows and what he doesn't know, and then trying to put it together in some sort of, like, framework for knowing. And so he's like, there's motion and oyster can distinguish two sorts. The first is being moved. Both the stone and myself can be moved. The second is moving on one's own. It's like this, like huge, you know, that was stone. Can't do this at all. I can move parts of myself. So then it's like, okay, starfish move, ballerina's move. Starfish attack oysters starfish attack ballerina. So he's trying to use what he does know limited to the limited amount of knowledge about starfish to try to understand now what God suggested to him about ballerinas. And, you know, then he's got like starfish move, ballerinas, move. Starfish are deadly to oysters are ballerinas deadly to oysters? And after this like line of reasoning that I would imagine would take an oyster a relatively long, long time. He kind of comes up with this list, the chief properties of a ballerina, a mobility like the starfish is. But he's assuming it's better be in vulnerability to starfish it's they're probably immune can't be injured by starfish. See loveliness. On faith he's taking it on God's word. Like ballerinas are lovely and deadliness possible, but he's not certain. So he he ends with this, like, hilarious list about ballerinas. And then the story ends. And Robert Capon basically is like, the very first thing that has to happen when you talk about theology is that we have to recognize we're not talking about God, but we're talking about words. Mhm. And I do think this wraps back in because like when we're talking about why do bad things happen to good people, I think the question isn't initially about God, it's about what we think the world is about like, yeah, you know, and I think there's this idea of like God's in control. Mm hmm. And so then and then. And then it's like, well, then everything's God's fault. Right? Or, you know, gods specifically allowing things to happen or, you know, so it becomes, I think, theological first when it maybe should be just anthropological first. I agree.

Unknown: I think that when we think about The early Israelites. the Hebrew people who are coming out of Egypt like they're liturgical be very impoverished. They were in Egypt in the midst of Egyptian worship, of Egyptian gods. But we don't have any prescribed worship in Egypt that the Jewish people were practicing. I mean, we don't write all the prescribed worship comes out. So, you go from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Right, right. Which even even in the midst of that, we know that there was somewhat of a polytheistic situation, because right there's that moment where Rachel sitting on the family idol. So then they're in Egypt and then they're coming out of Egypt, but it's not like they have the Bible. Right. Right. I often have to remind myself one of those like mind blowing moments in reading through the stories of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is they didn't know God. God knew them. God picked them. God is in the process of revealing who he is to them. But they didn't have anything before that to be like the God of the Jew. There were no Jews before that. And so so much of the interactions that God's having in Genesis with these people, his calling into intimacy, really, it's almost in a in a similar way, conversations about starfish and ballerinas because it's like, you know, we have these theoretical understandings of other gods. Right. And it's like we're trying to make sense of what we don't know by what we kind of know. So it's like, you know, and both are incredibly limited. So it's like, okay, other gods, one child sacrifice. Do you write veil is the agricultural god. he's being worshiped in order for there to be bountiful crops. So it's like, can Yahweh also produce bountiful crops that, you know, in this world everybody would have had not just a god, but a bajillion gods. Gods you prayed for for well being gods. You played for victory in battle, gods you prayed for so that your crops wouldn't fail. like the way that they knew made sense of the world was through worship. Yeah, but obviously it wasn't to Yahweh. So the question is like, what does it mean to be a worshiping people, you know, first? Right, right. And they don't know. And they don't know.

Unknown: We're starting with the question like, why does God let bad things happen? there's so many questions there to unpack. One of them being like, what do you expect of God? What do you expect your life to look like? There's just so many things to think about but I think that a lot of times we rush, right? And to that because we're like, well, if God was good and if if God, if there is a God who is who has some level of control, if not ultimate control, then, yeah, this stuff wouldn't be happening. Mm hmm. You know, he would do a better job at protecting or keeping the peace or something like that. Yeah, I think it's such a good point. there's this, like, prosperity gospel message that's kind of like you give. your time and your tithe to God and it's, pretty transactional. you fulfill your part of the deal and then God fulfills his part, which is blessing you. Right. You know, and I think that regardless of how much we subscribe to that, I in some ways believed it not that I thought God was going to make me rich if I said my prayers every day. But like I did believe that, you know, there's all these verses, there's all this stuff in the Bible about like you follow God, you do the right things. You, worship God solely. Mm hmm. And he. He he keeps you from harm. That's like in the Psalms. And so then when. When we experienced, like, different places in our own lives or in the lives of people we loved, just like. Suffering happening. You know, it was like, wait, this framework doesn't work. No, absolutely not. I know. I think about the one I used to claim all the time over myself was if you if you obey your parents, if you honor your mother and your father, you will you know, your life will be long. Things will go well for you. And I was like, done. Now I can do. I think I've come to the place of like,

Unknown: the Bible is for wisdom. And so when you have a statement like this, there generally it's like you will you live a long life because your parents will kill you. Maybe that's not quite that. I think that it is those sort of like trying to make sense and starfish with ballerinas because going back to like the people who were writing the Bible, like they understood reality in a very specific way.

Unknown: God frees them from the Egyptians, right? And there's like these songs of worship, the first recorded praise music heads, you know, are like, I will sing into the Lord. For he has conquered victoriously the horse in the rider he's thrown into the sea. So you have God. The first things they know about God is that He's a victorious warrior, right? It's like this less he's able to conquer their enemies. That's something they know about God. And then they end up in the wilderness and they learn other things about God, right? Like you know, they're given these commandments about how God wants to be worshiped, which, interestingly enough, is a lot of interpersonal responsibility. you know, God isn't just like give me a bajillion sacrifices. He's like, hey, actually, you have to honor your parents. Yeah. And, don't, don't like somebody else's house or woman or something, you know? So it's like the way God is setting up relationship with him. Yeah. It's very interpersonal in terms of like how they relate with one another. So that's a huge moment. And then you end up too with like God not being worshiped through an image if you think about the world that they had just come out of, right? It was very image based. I mean, everywhere you go, there's like different images of I mean, that's the whole like the ten plagues being actually right. Like a showdown, right? Right. Between the God of Israel and all of the gods, all of those different gods. And there's a visualization of what those guys look like, but you're always invisible and it's, you know, because he's like, hey, people are supposed to carry my glory, right? but point being, eventually they get to the promised land, you know, and there's this other question that arises It's like, okay, so God is able to save us from our enemies, right? And he cares about how we treat one another, but can he help us grow crops? Right. So then, you know, in the world that they live in, everything is like the they don't understand weather patterns. They don't understand, right. You know, cause and effect is cause. They are like, well, we did this. I remember doing that. as a as a young parent of like, well, if I do this and Iraq are ten times this way and they do, and then it put her down to sleep all night and you're like, no, I'm not. Absolutely. I mean, I know. And I think that that's sort of how they're thinking here. Okay, well, we did this one and we had a banger, Cropsey said. So let's do it exactly the same way we're going to. We're going to, you know, sacrifice here and do this here. And then we're going to yeah, it's really cause and effect base when it comes to totally and in that world, I mean like that's how everybody thought.

Unknown: we've actually been wanting to introduce this idea of Deuteronomy like thinking verses job like resolve this sort of like cause and effect. Taking the law and making it formulaic is kind of is is what comes out of Deuteronomy and it actually ends up being the perspective that the Old Testament is, based if I follow the laws of Deuteronomy, well, things will go well for me. And so then we get to the exile and they're carrying this Deuteronomy like thinking they're looking back through their whole history and they're saying, okay, when we lost a war we weren't on honoring God. Like they're they're analyzing the kings that follow God's way and they're analyzing the kings that didn't follow God's way. And they're saying, okay, when the kings followed the law we kept the covenant there was no idol worship or the widows and orphans and the aliens were taking care of. Then things would go well for us. And then when those things were forsaken, things would go bad for us. And so they were carrying this very Deuteronomy law based thinking. And I think that we actually still carry a lot of that, which is the thing that is being deconstructed today. Because at the end of the day, the Deuteronomy law cause and effect thinking doesn't hold up, especially in the moments when trauma happens, especially in the hardest moments, because you're like, Did I do anything bad enough to deserve this?

Unknown: the Heart of Job is like I didn't do anything bad enough to deserve this. Yeah. What is going on? I have this thing that comes in monthly for the kids called PJ Library. It's a it's a set of Jewish storybooks. and probably once a year we get this story and it changes the name. Sometimes it's it's Benjamin's blanket. David's blanket. And his grandfather has made him this blanket. He loves it so much. It's his favorite thing. But then he starts to wear it out. And so then his grandfather changes it into a vest. He loves it. It's his favorite thing. He wears it out. His father has. His grandfather, who is a tailor, by the way, changes it into a necktie. It's his favorite thing. He wears it out. His his grandfather changes it into a pocket square. it's his favorite thing. He wears it out. He his grandfather changes it into a button. And then one day the button pops off and he's distraught because his very favorite item is gone and his grandfather's goes. But, you know, it can never be lost a story. And then they start to tell the story of Benjamin's like it and it's so sweet and we get this it's an old Jewish folktale that and so we get a version of this book every 18 months or so, and it's actually one my kids favorite. But any book comes to mind. It's like a different telling. It's the same story, but sometimes it'll be David and sometimes it'll be set in modern times, and sometimes it'll be set in like pre-World War Two European Jewish communities. So it's really, really cool. But you know, that's the thing that story being told again and again from different right. And the job is like that job is this story of job has been passed down through centuries. I think Tim Mackey said it was probably a play that they did and so once it was finally recorded, it would have been a known story and it wasn't an actual, literal story. It was a folk story of sorts to have this conversation about suffering. And and so what I think is interesting and when we were listening to this teaching by Walter Brueggemann the Heart of Job is like I didn't do anything bad enough to deserve this. And so you're moving into the resolve of like, right if I don't follow the law, things will go badly for me to actually then being so honest and open with God to be like, no way. There's no way I did anything bad enough to deserve this suffering. And so you have two different questions. Yeah. I love that perspective so much more because I feel like I've really struggled with the Book of Job and often it becomes like, well, God gives and God takes away like right. part was like, wait, how could that be? Like, what's how is it good? You know, and obviously I'm reflecting on the fact that God's goodness is beyond my limited knowing. But it's just like there's things for one, the beginning of the story, you have this almost like pantheon of The heavens where all these people are mingling about and then say in awe, like the accuser's there. And then it's like, Wait, wasn't here to test out of heaven. So then it's like, now he's in heaven. Just like he can walk around and be like, Hey, God, you know? You know what? I bet Jobe would curse you if things fell apart for him. Like part of me is, like, that seems problematic. Like, not that I have, spent a ton of time, thinking about. How have you read them? I kind of. Right, right, right. But it's just like that feels problematic. And then God's like, yep, I'll take that bet. Yeah. Let's just, like, just like fuck up jobs like and see if they'll still worship me. write, And then and we'll see and we'll see what happens. And part of me is like, I don't love that as a reflection of God's character. you know, there's that moment where where Jesus is standing with Peter and he's like, the devil is trying to lift you, but I'm standing in the gap for you. Like that to me is the heart of God, right? Like that to me is like there is, an enemy out to prowl steel and destroy. Right. But but God is like, I'm standing in the gap for you that feels like God, right? But God being like, yeah, let's do it. And then it's like all his kids die. It's just this insane moment of, earthquakes and fire and storms, and everything's destroyed, and then his body is destroyed, and then his friends are cursing him. Right? And then at the end of the day, he is really pissed, right? You know, and then God just like basically is like you weren't there at the beginning of creation and somehow it ends I just feel like it just like ends in this sort of unresolved place Right. And yet we use Jobe as like, while the Bible like sometimes God allows suffering, like the Bible models, God allowing suffering. And part of me is like, I don't think we can use the Bible like that. I don't think that's what the story's about. I don't think so. I kind of love the way you're you know, you're suggesting or like pastoring is just an entirely new way of wrap your head around suffering because I think that that's freeing. in my mind what we're witnessing here with sort of like going quickly from Deuteronomy to Jobe and spoiler, we're going to go right to Jesus. But going from Deuteronomy me to Jobe, it's an evolution of thought. It's like, okay, well, we've got this thing figured out. We've got the law. Great lockdown here, A plus B or C, and then and then you have this. This community traumatic event that they're like, could we really have done something so bad that we that we were that we were meant to be annihilated, are our land stolen and totally wiped out. And so then you have this evolution of thought. What I think is interesting and the kind of the heart in all this is, We have somehow in evangelical America, taken Deuteronomy thinking and put it on Jesus. And Jesus has been like, no, no, no, no, no, no. It is not that. The heart of it is that the world is broken. And I am with you. Mm hmm. As I've been thinking about this question and these sort of ideas of the law and then the question of suffering and job. the point of the church and the church culture falling apart is is this is this moment is this question of the calculus doesn't work. And now what do I do? Mm hmm.

Unknown: Walter Bergman talks a lot about the Bible as literature, which is just a really important point, because I think we try to honor it by putting it in this place of being God's word, where it's like it doesn't behave like literature. It's interesting to reflect on the people telling these stories, the purpose behind the stories, the audience. That's there. You know who'd be listening to these stories initially? And I do think that deconstruction in illiterate in a literary framework, what really began to challenge the intent and even the the reading the meaning of the written word, because it's like, do you find the meaning in the intent of the author? Do you find it in the interpretation of the reader? And I feel like we've been on the side of the readers interpretation for so long that to just pause and be like, you know, there's no way to really know really the intent of the reader. But we can read into that a bit more by understanding the history, by understanding how literature and ancient contexts work, we can, you know, reflect on the world that was being shaped. Yeah. By these kinds of stories. my kids and I. I went to Egypt a couple of years ago. We're studying ancient civilizations and we went to see the pyramids and we were standing at the edge of the Red Sea. And it's actually super big You can't see across. And my kids were like, Do you think God really part in that? And I was standing there and I was like, you know. There's sort of a couple of different kinds of way to understand truth. Like, I think God's capable of separating this water for sure. Mm hmm. And that I think I was definitely capable of doing it. But. But. But the fact that this story of God parting the sea has shaped a people for, like, 5000 years. Mm hmm. it's, truth beyond just fact. Yeah, right. We want reproducible experiments. We're coming to the text with, like, rational understanding. We want science or scientific facts, right? And that's not necessarily how the Bible behaves, but it's like, regardless of whether or not the like it's like that idea of like, is it true? It's like what it has done. A truth of this story is that it has shaped a people. Yeah. And preserved people. And we're still standing on the edge of this. Of this water. Yeah. Talking about this saving grace of God. So it is kind of an interesting thing to think about, like, you know, looking at the story of Nova and being like, how do we how do we wrestle with it knowing that it actually does get destroyed? You know, it's like it's like how how do you read beyond sort of the facts of the story? Right.

Unknown: Back to the first thing in a conversation about oysters and starfish and ballerinas. It's like anthropology. What are we talking about when we talk about being human, being, people, suffering marriage, sexuality? It's like these things are not universal and they and they are not static through time. It changes like all changes. So before we try to say we know what God wants, you know, I think it's important to understand the context we live in and the sort of words we're using to describe our reality. Right. and when we find like the through line the heart that doesn't change. You can see when you put it in context, when you when you read it as, as it is, as well as we can as it's intended from the writer, from the author. And then we see then the through line that is applicable throughout generations, which is, you know, like we said, like be aware how you're treating each other, you know, worship God alone. I don't know, try to think of other ones. But like, you know what the the definition in the heart of what love is taking care of the most vulnerable. Like these are the themes that we see throughout the entire Bible and we think we see them. When you put the Bible in its own context and tradition, the best that we we are up to how well read we are at this moment. And and that's the stuff that we can take. And and then but it does become when you try to implement that today, it becomes messy and hard because that means we have to like in real time do inclusion and disagreement. And we have to make sure that we're taking in lots of different perspectives of what it means to be a person in this moment. And it's possible. I think we do it. I know we're not perfect by any stretch, but like we, you know, one of our I think one of both of our big tools is is trying to be really cognizant of of hearing from a lot of different perspectives in this moment of what it means to be a human And that means like different race perspectives, different sexuality, gender, we try to be mindful of. Of of. That we're embodying or that we are. That we're listening to. Lots of different. Experiences of being human in this moment especially, I think you do a really good job at that, especially as when it comes to authorship. Like you you you read a lot a lot of different perspectives.

Unknown: A few episodes back, I grabbed a bunch of old pair journals and just bringing up how our prayer journeys change. And then as I was reading them, I was like, Oh my gosh, it feels like I don't even know really who I am in these notebooks. that led to me deep diving a bunch of these old journals. And as I was reading through journals from like 13 years ago, I just felt really sad because a lot of it is like me journaling out, being a new postpartum mother. Yeah. And not knowing how to just say I'm sad, right? You know, I'm isolated and I'm lonely and I'm having a hard time and it's impacting like my relationship with with Gareth and it's making, you know, and instead of it being like, like I'm going through a really rough patch, I'm constantly doing this like navel gazing thing, although it's not my navel gazing at it's my heart. I'm just like, my heart's in the wrong place, my heart's in the wrong place. And I look back and I'm just like, Oh, I wish I could just, like, reach through the past and just, like, pat myself on the back and just be like, Girl, this is so hard. life is messy and hard and complicated, and sometimes you just got to, like, take a deep breath. Yeah. And lean in I can't tell you how many women I've talked to over the years that will start to kind of describe a way that they're hurting or struggling and then be like, but I know, you know, God, God is going to give me everything I need to get through this. And, you know, like and you instantaneously spiritualized it for the comfort of someone else like me, especially me when I was a pastor. people expect me to offer them some kind of spiritual guidance or or truth about God in that moment that will explain their situation or hopefully maybe offer them comfort, and I probably did that a lot in the beginning, I'm being honest because I felt like that was the right thing to do in the name of Jesus, in the name of church But as I learned a lot and went through my own suffering and I was exposed to. I mean, I know Jesus is with you, but this sucks, you know, and this is super hard and you don't have to have bandwidth for it. You know, you don't have to be happy that you're suffering right now. You don't have to be content in it. It can just suck. And also, like, maybe God's not trying to teach you something, it just sucks. It's just maybe God didn't pick this for you. Exactly right. Maybe life is just hard and sucks like a good amount of the time. Yeah. And if we lean into that then that's I think where we begin to find joy. Yeah. Because then the simple things in life, you know, we can enjoy, you know, this conversation here or that beautiful sunset because we're, we're living in this expectation of things will be hard and I'll appreciate the good things when they come. Yeah. Versus like, why aren't there more good things or why is my life, you know, it's like I just think that it's a different posture. Yeah. Because it ends up being this idea of, like, proving to yourself or proving to God that you either do or don't deserve this. And ultimately, it's a shame. That's shame, you know? And when we can consciously release shame and just be like, sometimes life sucks and God is here, you know, we, we see God's eyes different We experience his presence different, we hear his voice different. You know, everything shifts because we have released that shame and we can be present with ourselves and others. That's good. Yeah. I remember we were traveling and we woke up and we know and I had this like have her, her face was like completely trashed. It was like this really weird rash. And I think we put some sort of cream or something on it. It started to get worse. We were freaking out. She just was like very self-conscious about her face. She was wearing this, like, scarf over part of her face. And I remember that night she just had this breakdown and she was just like, Why me? Why do bad things always happen to me? And I just was like, Yeah, girl, that sucks, you know? It wasn't like, this is the moment to be like, not all. Like, you know, like other words, like, you know, like, you know, or like you're not being grateful because remember that you're on a nice trip and like, have a it was like there was no mention of her heart. There was no mention of the state of her heart. It was not a teaching moment. I just, sat there with her and I was like, Oh, girl, yes, this sucks. Yeah. yeah, I think, like learning how to just sit in the in the frustration and the grief and the pain and not try to, like, give a pat answer or any of right. Because, I mean, sometimes there's no answers. This happen to have an answer. And there was a small piece of pollen stuck in her ear, which we found after we came back to the States and a pediatrician pulled it out. But like, you know, but for a long time, it was like, what? What's happening? And there wasn't an easy answer. And you're sitting in the tension of like, I don't know how to say I can't fix this, you know? And I think that life sometimes it's a waiting game.

Unknown: I've been I've been in a, you know, situations often at the coffee shop where there's things out of my control that I can't. And it's each day it's like putting out fires or trying to fix problems and then only to find out like the next day there's another problem. And sometimes it just feels like a marathon, you know, right? Like you're running uphill right in it. And then you get to the end of the hill only to find out it's another hill. Like, there's no there's no down. There's no downslope. And I think that. Really. It's a mindset thing, though, because it's like. If if we feel like there's a meaning in our lives and meaning in our suffering, that it's for something we can we can do it well, we can handle it, you know. I think the thing that's hard is when it feels pointless, right? You know, when it feels like a waste of our time, right? You know? Yeah. Go back and forth between being like. I'm going to look back in a few years at a decade spent in this little coffee shop. And one part of me is like. It could feel like a waste of my life if I told the story one way. Right. Or it could feel like an amazing opportunity if I am careful about telling the story a different way. So it really is like, is it something that's sapping my life? Or is it something that's giving me giving me meaning and relationship and a place in my community to love and to serve. Right. Because both technically, both of those things could be true. Right? I can see. Yeah, no, I absolutely can see where both could be true. I'll never let you tell that story. I thought you went through a decade. Oh, my God. I mean, I. I know probably a lot of you have been to roots, but for those of you who haven't. it is the warmest, most famous night in our neighborhood. And, um, and even last night, we were at an event where Patricia saw seven people that she knew in the community because of roots. we, we use the phrase church in the wild a lot. Like that is what Roots is. Roots is this wild, temple in the wilderness and seed of all that is beautiful and it's true. So you noted, Well, so, Larry, is that we're practicing exactly what we're talking about, because you are in this moment of being like. Yeah. This is my whole life. Just wild for no reason. Because I'm home schooling and running a coffee shop and, you know, whatever else. Or is there something deeper? And. Yeah, and that's the most beautiful thing is like, I can only only empathize with how wild it must feel from your perspective in your body. But from my perspective, it's this wildly holy adventure. And our whole neighborhood is better for it. And. it's bringing in these multiple perspectives when you feel out of your depth, you know. And sometimes it's just as simple as this. This must feel crazy. I'm so sorry that it feels that way. And then sometimes it's like, Well, this is how I see it. Not, you know, or I can't believe you feel that way, because I see so differently, you know? But all with understanding, empathy and grace with like someone else's felt experience When we took over the coffee shop. Like there's all these sort of business truisms, like don't start a business with your family, your friends. And I was like, But I'm doing this for Jesus. So it's going to be different. And it actually wasn't different. It's just always a really bad headache. Really hard, really hard idea. Yes. You know, so it was like, Jesus, does it make it easier? You did not make it easier. Like it did not make it easier at all. So like, yeah. So initially you were like asking me to move on and then it started to be less fun. and you know how it's interesting how metaphors really are. So all of a sudden this imagery of like a ball and chain, that's started to be my image of the God I can take this thing, you know? And yeah, I remember it was like August 2019 and my mom called me and she's like, I had this dream and you were crying and you were really upset. And I was like, Oh, that's real. That wasn't a dream. That was a dream. That was like me today. And she was like, I think maybe I should come visit you. And I was like, Well, yes, please. And I just remember it was like I now six years out, I've learned sort of like the calendar rhythm, but at the time it was still new to it. So it was like people leaving and all of a sudden me working like two weeks in a row, usually in the beginning of August, usually around my birthday, which I'm not much of a birthday person, but it was like, you know, so I woke up, open the coffee shop on my birthday and I was like, and I remember leaving and my mom's there and the kids and the thing I wanted to go to too was Central Library. I loved the library and I was like, We're going to library. My mom's like, I kind of think it's going to rain. It's like it's not going to rain. And then we ended up walking home in like a torrential downpour. It was raining so much. It was like we were standing in a super water pressure shower. Oh, like water coming down. And it was one of those moments where. We just started laughing because it was so ridiculous and it was just like, you know, like it's already been a hard season. It's already been a hard day and now we're drenched. The thing about that moment was my mom coming. She didn't necessarily make it better, but she sat in the hardness with me. You know? Yeah. And we just. We laughed together and, like, she couldn't fix it, but she could sit in it with me. And she started to do that. She made a regular practice of, like, every other week. She came from the summer of 2018 to March 2020. And I honestly don't think I could have survived going into the pandemic as a small business owner. Wow. If I hadn't had like that that season of someone sitting with me in the hard arm. That's really beautiful.

Unknown: I've mentioned a lot that I've always been anxious and. I struggled. I struggled a lot in middle school. Like it was really acute in middle school. I would sleep on my sister's floor every night because I was just too anxious to sleep in my own room. And you were in Guam? Yes, sir. Yep. I went and we went when I started my fifth grade year. And then I was in private school for one year. And then we were homeschooled. Sixth, seventh, eighth. And then I started public school. And I think the freshman year in public school was really hard too, because. That's hard. Like freshman year is hard and going. Never having been in public school before was hard, and so I was pretty anxious the entire time we were on Guam. But it was really acute in middle school. I think it got a little bit better in high school when I got really active, like I was in pool every play I could get my hands on. I was in the debate club, I was in mock trial. Like I kept myself really busy, which is how I coped with, you know, it was an anxious that's how I could stay busy and it would possibly get I know it would get worse in the summers when I was less busy. And so but during these times, you know, I very rarely voiced my anxiety to my my parents because I didn't have language for it. if I were to articulate it back then, I would have said, I'm I'm scared all the time. I'm I'm maybe I would use the word worried, but it's more it was more gripping fear, like a lot of my fears were that my my parents would die. My sister would die, I would die, that there was no God. It was a with a lot of like spiritual fear. And, so I would have these just like, really? Dark days where I was just so freaked out all the time but couldn't articulate it because the few times that I did try to voice this to my parents, my mom, who's a very practical woman who's amazing she really is so amazing. She's a super practical woman. And and also just like super steeped in the evangelical experience, she was like, well, God is sovereign. so if God takes me, that's okay. That's what's going to happen. Not the answer for an anxious ten year old yet. and my mom also gave me all the resources she had, which were which was wonderful. You know, she tried she would she I remember her one of her big things was say the name of Jesus, because in her mind, if I was fearful, that was a of the enemy. And so in her theology, where the name of Jesus is spoken, that enemy couldn't be. So essentially I so I was taught to say the name of Jesus. My anxiety would abate, didn't happen. And so I would be in my bed at night, full body, sweat, anxiety, and just being like, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, over and over and over again and still just like, full of anxiety. And so it turned into me just like begging God to take all of my fear away. And and then every time I learned about, like, some sort of story of God promising peace in my young life, I would feel shame because I would be like, I don't have any peace. What am I doing wrong? And so it became this real, like my, you know, my whole spiritual life in middle school and high school became just, like, begging God to take this away from me. And it didn't go away. So I had this really visceral experience of asking Jesus desperately to meet me and help me and be present with me and feeling nothing. And. And as I was processing this with my therapist, you know, four or five years ago, she would always remind me. She was like, I would be like, God, abandon me. And She would say it wasn't God. It was your it was your family. You needed more emotional support. You needed more emotional tools. And I was like, I hear you says it's my it's God. And it felt really true at the end of that. And she's not wrong, by the way. She's not wrong. I needed more emotional tools. I needed more emotional support. I needed a lot of things. I needed more emotional language that she she was not wrong. But in that moment, I felt that she was wrong because I was like, I didn't ask my parents for help because I couldn't. I asked Jesus and he did nothing. And so my felt experience was that I was abandoned by God. And what do you do with that when, like, the truth is that God never leaves you, but you felt abandoned by God? And so I was trying to process through this rationally without going back into the felt experience. And one night I, I and this is after the accident. This is after a lot of things like everything's really raw at this point. And I was so tired. I had put the kids to bed. I had gone to sleep, they had gotten up again, which children are I want to do? And I was rocking Elizabeth on my on the floor in her room. And I had been like singing and reading and coat and begging for them to go to sleep for like 2 hours. I was so physically exhausted, emotionally exhausted. And finally it ended up me like holding Elizabeth, who was too big at this point to be held like this, rocking her and praying. And all of a sudden my rage got the better of me. And I don't rage. I'm not a rage person. I'm not in touch with my emotions like that or I wasn't. I'm better more now. But I was never in touch with anger, really. That was something that was that was put away for me. And I'm holding Elizabeth, and I just snap and I'm praying. I was like, I have been here for 2 hours asking you to help my children sleep so that I can go back to bed and you're nowhere to be found. Where the hell are you? This is and. And automatically. I was back. I was I was 11 and 12 again. And I was begging him for help and he was nowhere to be found. And I was so angry and I was like, again, this is it. You leave me when I need you the most. And I'm asking you, there is no one else here to ask. I can ask no one else. You're the only one I have. And you're doing nothing. Nothing. And Elizabeth finally passes out. And she's so tired. And she I put her back in her bed and I just sit there with that feeling in your body of like kind of total release and feeling depleted. And I'm like, not going back into prayer. Sort of like, giving God the silent treatment. And I go back and I finally crawl back into bed and sleep. And the next morning I was walking to work and I put worship music on. I don't actually usually do that. and I think it was sort of like a peace offering. I think it was my way of entering back in to noticing his presence after raging at him and feeling slightly ashamed about it. Right. And I started and I didn't even I don't even think I started praying. I didn't I just was listening to this worship song. And and all of a sudden I got this, like, video image in my mind. And I don't usually get pictures. I don't ever get pictures for myself. And I got this, like, video image and it was, it was like as if it was a modern dance performance. And I was standing in the middle of the stage and the stage was set like my fifth grade classroom, which was the the first year I was in school in Guam. It was a really hard year and it was the year that really shifted everything for me because it was so traumatic and I didn't have language and I didn't have blah blah, blah. I've now learned it is the cornerstone to a lot of this. And I'm standing in the middle very still in the middle of my fifth grade classroom. And it's as if everything is dancing around me, as if the spirit is dancing around. And he brings my fifth grade teacher over to me and like has her face me and she, like, dips her head and turns away. And then he brings my, my, my, my mom over and she and she faces me and she and she dips her head and turns away and he does it with my my dad and he. And it's as if all the adults in my life he would bring over and face me as if he's he's as if he's showing them my need and they can't see it. It's like their eyes are blank, they can't see me, and they turn away. And then he brings my sister over. Sorry, guys. I always cry when I tell this person. And he brings my sister over and she stays. And her eyes are looking at my eyes. I just. I was crying because my sister saved my life. I would sleep on her floor. She's the only one who knew the depth of my anxiety. And and her just like she didn't have any resources for me. She didn't have emotional language. She didn't have tools. She was just there. And she was the embodied presence of the living God to me through those times that I think we might have been for each other. I don't know. I'd like to think that about when in that moment, first of all, the access point was vulnerability with God, with like finally meeting him in the anger that I was carrying, him not being honest about. And the second thing was, it's like sometimes we can't see the creative ways God meets the needs we have. And, and they feel imperfect because they are like God's ideal. For me, growing up as a child would be completely, holistically taken care of with all the tools that I need and the emotional support the child needs. And that didn't happen for me. And yet he would not leave me alone and he wouldn't leave me forsaken. And it's imperfect because it was imperfect. But it didn't mean he wasn't there. It didn't mean he wasn't listening. It didn't mean he wasn't providing and. That experience. And in that when he was when God was showing me this beautiful dance around my young child self, it was with No, I told you so. There was no shame in it. It was this beautiful picture of like I. I hear your anger and it is so righteous. It's totally okay. And I get it. And you. You have every right to feel this way. Can I just show you where I was? And I think that's a lot of it. When we sit in each other's pain and we look back or we or we sit in it and we look at the present, we can be curious together of like how we can notice God's presence. Because I do believe at the end of the day, through all these experiences, that God is always present and sometimes it can. Take being honest about our feelings or I don't know. It's going to take some creativity to notice what that looks like of his his comfort in these and these moments. Yeah. That's so beautiful.

Unknown: I just think it's such an important story. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. I. It's really been a pathway for me into. Yeah. Being and being myself vulnerable with God and then sitting with other people and their vulnerability or even inviting other people in their vulnerability. Like I try to encourage everyone. Like, do you need to be angry with God? Because you can do that. I think some people are super comfortable with the idea. quite a lot of people that are like nervous to be angry in front of the God of the universe. And I get that.

Unknown: It makes me think a little bit of the story of Jacob, like, wrestling all night with God. And and I think that there's something about that wrestling that is so important to us as humans. But yeah, I think that that idea of like, oh, I can't bring my wrestle, I can't bring my anger, frustration. I can only bring like the the the Sunday morning feelings. Yes. Right. It's like, yeah, I only can bring my adoration. as I was listening to teaching through Jacob in Bima. You know, I talk about him a lot, but Bima, Marty Solomon, he talks a lot about Jacob and his Hotspur. And he because when you look at the story of Jacob, he's not a great guy and he kind of never is a great guy. And he makes a lot of really dumb decisions. But but there's this desire to lead. There's this desire to know God, there's this. And He calls it Hotspur. And I really appreciate that because I think. There's a fondness in God for the Hotspur. And I think knowing that can be a pathway and an encouragement to be your, your, your most honest self before God. And for me it's been thinking about the idea of what's fun. God's like delight in it has given me a lot of life because, you know, not only made learning to be vulnerable before God and bring all of my emotional all the emotional spectrum before God, but also like I'm a Hotspur lady. We both are, you know, like we have a lot of desire, we have a lot of spunk, we see the world and we want to write it, I've been asked in the church setting. I like do you want, do you really want to teach the Bible or do you just want attention like your your motives or my motives are being questioned? Why? it's a means of control. But I think now as a more grounded person, I'm like, Yeah, the answer is yes, I want to lead. I want to teach the Bible and I, love performing. I am God made me a performer. Before I taught the Bible, I was an actress. Like, the answer is yes. And then to learning more about chutzpa and and how God delights. There's so much God delights and each of these, founding fathers of faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they have something that God delights in, something that God highlights, is like that that that'll get you far. You know, it makes me think about this moment in The Chosen. and Peter has quite a bit of chutzpah and you know, he's like all over the place And there's this moment where he comes to tell his wife that he's going to go follow Jesus. And it's an interesting moment because this is pre cell phone, right? You know, I think, you know, it's like it's like you've gone and there's not I mean, there might not be a lot of ways to get in touch. It's probably word of mouth. I don't know if they're literate in the way we would describe, literacy. And so she's standing there and. he's like, Are you upset that I'm going to leave? And she's like, No way. Like, of course he would see. And you know what I've always seen in you. Right. And just this idea that he's like the one who's, like, slicing off the ear of the guy or he's like, you know, he, you know, he's like this constantly living with his heart, like five feet away from his brain. You know, it just. He is, like, half forward and he gets picked. Yeah, you know, he gets picked not because, you know, he's quiet and demure and you know, it's he gets picked to build the church on. Yeah. Because of what it sounds like we're describing as chutzpa. Yeah. You know, passion. Yeah. You know, and there's room for growing in the midst of it, of course. But it's like, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just think it's interesting to think about Old Testament, Jesus, like wrestling Jacob through the night, then like in New Testament. Jesus Wrestling. Peter. Right. You know, like you have like this Israel and then this new Israel that's being built in a very similar fashion. People who are bringing the fullness of their being right into union with God. Right. We need all of us we need the Jacobs, we need the Abraham's, you know, and we need to love with our guts. And do we do? Yeah. I think that, like, that verse about, like, loving the Lord your God with all of your heart, your mind, your soul and your strength. And it's like somehow it's like but mostly your mind, you know? Right, And I feel like it's like, what? Look what it looks like to love God with your gut, with your intuition, with your passion, with your emotions. Might might not seem like the most rational thing to do sometimes. you have Jesus going to the cross, which wouldn't make sense, in the scheme of a battle strategy for you. But he chooses death in order to inaugurate resurrection life. And it's just interesting that as Jesus is building his followers, they don't all think the same way. They don't all love the same way. You know, you have people who are more thoughtful or standing to the side. And then you have people who are willing to just jump into the fray. And I don't think that one is better than the other. I think the point is, we need each other totally. We need each other if we are building a church of just people who want to stand and thoughtfully think things out, we're going to miss out. And if we are just building a church of people who are jumping into the fray, we're going to miss out. I think that the body of Christ needs us all in all of our differences and our peculiarities and our complexities, because together we image God. And I think the whole idea of like being the image of God or being the Temple of Christ, that's not something you do on your own. It's not an individual calling. It's like a corporate reality. I just want to invite you to pause and reconsider, the beautiful things that you're bringing to the table. And maybe there are things that you're comparing to other people, and you're like, I wish I was more like that. I wish I was more like that. But what if you just pause and think about Those. Peculiarities that might make you the missing link, that might make you like the key to the puzzle or the puzzle piece.

Unknown: I would love to just pray for you before we go today. God, I think you that you are always near, always pursuing us, always looking at us with delight, always wanting to hold our hands and pat our backs and give us a hug when we're just feeling overwhelmed and confused and frustrated. Bored. Got to ask for new ways of seeing you. A new ways of seeing your nearness I pray, Father, for felt safety with you. by the power of your spirit. I pray that you that they would feel safe in your presence. We love you, God.