Hi, you're listening to The Exile Project for Friday, May 10, 2024. In today's episode, we're sharing some personal, everyday stories that over time have become fundamentally important to a life of prayer. Now here's your hosts, Elisa Booker and Patricia Manwaring.

Hey, everyone. I'm Patricia. I'm Elisa. Welcome to the Exile Project. We're so glad you're here. On Thursday night's telethon, I meet almost directly between our apartments. We live about three blocks away. There's a great little bar, and we sit with all of our notes and we plan everything out. And then somehow between that moment and this moment, which is like 12 hours. Yeah, barely. I feel like I changed so many things. I'm 40 books and I rewrote and restructured all my notes. But I think we're ready. I think we're ready to be great. We wanted to kind of continue our talk on prayer from last time with Aaron, because we want to tell you a little bit more of our own prayer journeys, kind of what what works for us right now in this crazy season and just sort of yeah, just kind of tell some stories around what's what's really moved the needle. I don't know. Move the needle is a weird thing to say, but really invited us into intimacy with God in prayer.

Last week we spoke with Aaron Thomas, and he shared his definition of prayer, which is the primary way that God shapes us, which I think is such a beautiful thought And that was sort of juxtaposed with how he grew up feeling, like the scriptures or the Bible was the main way God shapes us. And now he feels like the Bible. And I agree with this. the Bible is the primary way we receive information about God or Jesus. And prayer is the way that we are shaped. and I think primary way we could encounter Jesus, which yeah, I do think that that's a really beautiful definition of prayer. Yeah, I agree. And as he's met God in the intimacy of prayer, he's shifted the emphasis on the importance of prayer and spiritual formation, And then when he moved into that image of the ocean, of how like the ocean is, is kind of like the prayer life stepping in. And you can always go back to the sand, but the Bible, you can always go back for more information or to check your your thought process or whatever. But, you know, you kind of got to step into the ocean. And the other thing that we talked about a lot was, seasons, about how like he had just come out of a season of being a pastor, and so his time was a little more his own. Now he's in a little more of a structured work environment, so he doesn't have the same liberties he had as a pastor about taking Sabbath and taking retreats. And so his prayer laces shifted in that

And we we definitely feel that. And one of the things we really wanna talk about is like how prayer does shift in seasons from like when you're a single person to when you're married to when you have kids or you know, from job to job, from place you live to place, you live like there's a thousand reasons why your rhythms shift and you have to kind of reimagine what it looks like Yeah, I totally,

Well, kind of talking about where we came from in prayer. We have some overlap, some similarities, and we have, you know, differences. But one of the things that we found in common was the prayer, Yeah. I remember being taught how to pray, through acts, adoration, confession, Thanksgiving, supplication as a kid, and just really, like, heavily leaned into confession. Yeah. Didn't know where you get stuck. Yeah. super stuck in confession. We both came from traditions that when you took communion, you like. I remember my mom being like, you have to get right with God. And you're not trying to drum up sin. I had to confess as an eight year old. Yeah. And, like, I had to kind of adequately feel bad about myself to be able to go and take the body in the blood of Jesus. Yeah. Which is now so strange to me. But I was thinking about acts and there's still something beautiful about the format. when you understand all the pieces. I don't want to totally pooh pooh on acts if you know, especially if you practice, if that works for you. Absolutely. 100% for me. 

I had a really hard time with Adoration because I was thinking about this this morning and I was like it was like trying to find adoration for, like, a terrible dictator. Like, you are forced to start with adoration. And so for me, when I came before God, it was like, thank you for raising the son again. because I actually didn't know a good God, I didn't know. One that inspired wonder and and like I like a sense of, like, oh, my gosh, you are amazing. I see that. I feel that now I could spend time and being just like, wow, the way you love people while the way you love me. Like, I could spend time adoring God now, but not then, because I was afraid of him. And how do you know you are someone you're afraid of? Until I just made you think about, like, how X would totally not work with, like, our husbands. Like that was the only way we can, you know, be like, hey, super, super. Love you. Oh, I'm sorry. You know, I didn't do any of your laundry. I just want to thank you for the way that you've done those dishes. And please, will you help me write with. You know, it's like it's I think the thing to me that doesn't work, that it's too formulaic. I am not a structured person at all. Right. So the thought of like structuring my conversations with so it's like not only do you have like potentially a, you know, a dictator in the attic sort of situation, but like also this sort of idea of like the formulaic, like I just couldn't write. So I think that's part of it too. It's an unnatural relational, right? Right. Yeah. 

For me. For me, I think it works for some people, but like totally. Yeah. And because it feels formulaic, it feels like to get to hear you have to do this one. So for me, it's like I have to, to get through confession, to get to supplication and so really adoration Thanksgiving or just to make God feel good about the fact that I feel good about him or whatever. But really, it is like, let me tell you how I know I'm not good enough to ask you for what I need. Right. And, so then the other two just feel disingenuous because you're really focused on the fact that you feel crappy about yourself and you still need to ask God for something. And I feel like that is the window into my prayer life until I was 35 and like, I'm going to come to you and and feel absolutely terrible. I do not deserve to ask you for what I'm about to ask you. And I know that like I know I know I've done all these things and I'm not I'm not here there in this where and still I need to ask you to heal this person or I, I we're desperate. Yeah. Needing funds and I have to ask you did it whatever. Yeah. So that ended up being my entire prayer life, which doesn't feel like intimacy. it's full of shame. Shame. Yeah. Yeah. 

I remember praying with Gareth. We were really married and being like, Yeah, yeah. Like, let's just spend some time in conversation together or whatever. And he was like, Yeah, I think I'm good. And I was just like, Why? And he just, like, couldn't immediately drum up like a bunch of things he needed to confess. And it was just like, Are you even saved? It was like, honestly, such an issue of contention because I was, yeah, very easily able to think about it. And I just think not only do you live in sort of that like shame sort of focused narrative, but we miss out to the point of like vocation, right? If God creates us as a worshipers, right? To stand in that kind of in-between declaring his glory over creation and then offering a song of praise back in return, we miss the importance of adoration. It becomes a quick like, Thank you God for being you and then also hears everything about me. And it's just like, I don't know, it's like learning how to adore. Yeah, it's like maybe the whole point. Yeah. Which I did not get either, right. No, no, it's such a well it's hard when there's, it doesn't feel like there's anything to a door, you know. And now just to be very clear, there does feel like a world full of things to adore, but at the time it felt really force and inauthentic. I had like a lot of experiences with God when I was little.

I think I was doing some adoring when I was a kid. Like, I think it was a bit confusing because I was like, Definitely. Focus on the shame, but also like I would just have these memories of just singing and crying. yeah. You know, like feeling God's presence and just feeling his nearness. And then I remember being invited into prayer as a kid in some very specific ways. My parents, I knew there was some just financial struggles. It was like the late, probably early nineties. And I just remember starting to pray over my parents finances, which is weird when you're 11, but like, I just felt like God put on my heart to pray for like a $20,000 raise, which in the nineties was a ton of money. Yeah, but like, I just had this faith to begin praying it and my dad, like, changed jobs and then went back to the old job. And the difference between what he had been making when he left and when he went back was about $20,000. And it was just like this wild thing of being invited to praise super specifically.

maybe like seven or eight years ago I was exploring, praying specifically like this again and I was in a Whole Foods and the cashier was talking to another worker, another cashier person about Jesus. Like I overheard them talking about Jesus and I was just like, Hey, my friend's brother's about to get brain surgery. Could you pray for him? And she was like, Yeah, what's your phone number? Which wasn't the response I was expecting. I thought she would be like, Yeah, thank you, what's his name? But she's like, What's your phone number? And so I gave it to her and she's like, Great, I'll call you later. And so, well, so then like, I don't know, four, 5 hours. She called and she's like, sit down. And I was like, okay. and she started to teach me about, how to pray and that. And she was like, When you pray, you have to pray so specifically. And just like this, it was like this really interesting imagining praying in net where it's like, you know, praying over his brain and over his like the doctors and like everything specifically you could in that space. And so I'm just like sitting on my floor in my bedroom and she's I don't know where she is, but we're on the phone together, praying over my friend's brother's getting brain surgery. And it was a great, successful operation and he was fine, but it was just like that was such a wild moment too. Like, Wow, yeah. So I've had a lot of interesting prayer teachers and experiences. Yeah, yeah.

When you brought up like being invited into prayer as a kid, I actually do remember being younger than puberty and having a more adoring heart towards God. Like I actually felt like I knew more about His goodness when I was younger. And then, I moved and went through some really hard times and puberty and that's when it really became a lot harder and shame really fully entered the picture and it was a lot harder to access like to feel that God, what do you think it was about puberty that changed? Was it like body shaming or. Yeah, there was a lot of that. I struggled with my body because I, you know, I've always struggled my weight and then the beauty standards and, and all that. But also right before puberty is when we moved to Guam. So I made this incredible shift that was super traumatic. And again, it was good. I loved living there. But it doesn't mean it wasn't hard to make the move. And so you moved to Guam because your family was with became missionaries. And so then that was the other thing. Like my entire world became the church and ministry. And so that means every like hard moment financially, every, emotional struggle became wrapped up in spiritual language. And, you know, the cause and effect was we work in ministry and there was no separation between church and state. It was all church all the time. And so I think that those were the things that made it really, really hard.

I had this moment where I felt like I had been calling me to pray into this psalm. And it the things I love about this is I think it's 62 or 63. It talks about like the lonely being pulled into families. It talks about like there's this group of people which the word would be actually women, group of women in Hebrew in the images, like them going out to announce the victory of the king like the women who were dancing before, David, as he's coming back from battle. You know, so it's like this large host of women proclaiming like God's new creation, essentially, and praying into this psalm for years. And one day I talking to my son Harris, and he must have been probably four at the time. And I was like, Oh, it's something you love about God. And he was like, I love how he plays Legos with me. And I was like, okay, you know what? Really? I mean, that was I went over and I was like, okay, so trying to roll with it, like and I did come from a background where we really tried to prioritize right thinking, right? So I'm like, Is that something God does? Does he play Legos with people? I'm not sure. But and then and then I was like, Well, what do you do when you play Legos with with God? And he's like, Well, sometimes he tells me that he likes to ride on clouds. And I was like, okay, you know, it just I was like, okay. And then like a couple weeks later, I was rereading that psalm that I had been praying into in the beginning of the Psalm talks about like he who writes in the cloud, it was this wild. So it's just like the idea of God meeting my kids while he's playing Legos, right? And giving him I had never emphasized God writing in class. That was not something that was like, you know, in my spiritual language, sort of just it was those kinds of moments hearing my kids reflect on God And then my own background as a kid who loved God has really impacted the way I do the ministry, because I'm just like, you get the full sized Holy Spirit. I love that you I learned, she says, you know, I'm I'm here to witness. like we're postured as and God not against you. It's like we're learning from each other. Yeah. And hoping to all learn from God. So. Yeah, yeah.

And I think it is interesting to reflect on, like, the traditions that people are in. So for me, growing up in the Reformed Presbyterian Church, we would stand still and sing a cappella psalms. And there was not really a lot of engagement in, you know, between the pulpit in there and the pews. But then I would go to a charismatic youth group where we were all kind of like dancing, and there might be testimony sharing. And then during the week when I was little, I remember my mom having Jesus parades where we would like emerge around our house and wildly play instruments. So it was just it is interesting to think about just this impact of traditions shaping prayer. I remember, so, you know, already growing up in a way that kind of had a mishmash prayer situation. But then I went to this Pentecostal church in college I came back and I'd be like, Jesus, we just praise you today. And it was just this lilting in my voice and it was genuine, but it was just like I had learned this new way of musicality in my voice, in prayer, and and then, I feel like when I pray now, I'm like completely still. Like, I've had. I've had, like, seasons of, like, wildly dancing, And now I'm just like, I'm just going to lay on the kitchen and not move. That's kind of where I'm at. Yeah,

working with kids. I don't want to just say motherhood because we, we both work with kids all the time, but has first of all, let me get back to My my five, six year old seven year old self that did adore God. I have a I remember being in a play somebody the singing songbook. Yes and I it was the camping one just for anyone who also grew up in church. And I was playing the lightning bug and and I was in the Lightning Bug costume. And there's a song in that one that's like like I sing with my heart or something like that phrase that is like, obviously if you say it now, you're like, Yeah, you sing with your heart. I guess that means. But as a, I was probably seven, I didn't know what that meant. I was literal and so I was like, I want to sing with my heart because I love God so much. And I remember just standing backstage in my lightning costume, pushing my chest to the sky, being like, say, the heart. And I often think about it because it was so pure and it was I meant it so much like I meant it with my whole heart. I was singing. My heart just didn't know how and no one had explained it to me. And I do think that's like that's the truth version of who I am, this six year old who's like, I love you, you know? And it took a long time to get back to that person. But working with kids and and watching their experience with God and truly seeing God interact with them has just invited me into a whole new world with prayer and the Lord and all that stuff. It's interesting, too, because I feel like there really is this dichotomy between the the sweet, like purity of the kids and also just how much like I want to be in control and oh yeah, you know, like, that's like this interesting. I'm not quite sure of the right word. I was going to, I don't know, like, it's not a melting pot of this. But anyway, I just have this, like. I said this memory of putting my kids to bed and like I still sing to them before they go to sleep. And you know, as I'm sitting there and I'm just like, I think we're known as two at this point, I'm just like, Jesus. And she's just like rolling all over the bed. And I'm just like, Jesus. And she's like, hopping and moving and then, mid-song like this, involuntary. I don't like rage. I just lean over, hold her down onto the bed. And I'm just like,

Dude, let me take over. You can. And then it's like this, like crazy like that. I just get like she, like, completely. So everyone's freaked out and then I just, like, near her, like, whatever the holy. And I'm like, how do I what do I do next? And it's like it's like these wild things where it's like I do think that as we grow up, we want predictability, we want control, we want structure. Yeah. And as a kid, your full imagination all the time. Yeah. And so I think it is that challenge of like seeing that part of me. Like obviously kids need to lay down and go to bed, but as I, as I began to recognize in myself what I was responding to, what what has changed is, is in those moments, instead of just being like, who do right? I'd be like, man, when I see you move, I think about how God never stops moving. Yeah. You know, and it's just like you remind me of the beauty of our God. Yeah, you know? And it's like a different way of parenting, because it's like, we're not, like the idea of if spiritual formation isn't like you are a square and I've got to squeeze you into a round peg. It's just like I want to acknowledge who you are and what you carry, right? And then empower you to be the fullest version of you that there is. Yes, absolutely. Oh, man. Praying over my kids has been an absolute, you know, intensive in learning how to partner with God and release control. Both of my kids struggled potty training wise with a lot of anxiety and fear around poop. And I prayed, I swear this is going somewhere. 

And with both kids, I had no, no framework for that. I was going to spend a ton of time praying about poop in their young lives. But I remember with Benjamin, we were really trying to to transition him out of diapers and into the party, and he had had some a lot of struggle. And it was we finally took the diapers off, took the training wheels off, and he he wouldn't go until I was. And it probably lasted for two or three days. And I was an anxious wreck for two or three days because I was like, he's going to get sick. We're going to have to go to the emergency room. He's, you know. Da da da da da da da. And I would pray. And in those moments, I was like, there's nothing I can do here. I cannot force him. I can not coax him. I can I have no control. I have to give full control over my son's bowel movement to God. And I'm that might sound silly, but the mechanics of it were so raw and real that I was like, He is yours. I can't do this, and I am begging you to help him. And ultimately he did. They're both fine kids. Everything's great potty wise, and I hope they never listen to this. They'll hate that I talked about it, but it's such a raw, real way of how one of those ways I learned to to trust and to believe that God is heart over my my kids or the person that I'm praying over is better than my own And so, yeah, praying through motherhood has been incredibly instructive. That's a gateway for me. We don't want to ever make you feel like because you're not a mom, you know? It's just like it's learning to recognize what those gateways are into intimacy with God, what those gateways are into understanding kind of the mechanics of prayer, and then realizing that just God is the one pursuing us, but we'll get there.

I think that those kinds of experiences where you really just feel wildly out of control. If you come from a tradition that really prioritizes authentic language in prayer. Yeah. And when you feel raw and empty, Sometimes it can be harder to pray in those times, you know? Tish Harrison Warren wrote Prayer in the Night, which is such a beautiful book for those who work or watch or weep. And she comes from liturgical. I think she's actually an Anglican priest, but she yep, she's an Anglican priest, but so she has like a liturgical format of prayer, which is praying, which means praying the ancient prayers that have been prayed for like close to 2000 years. So she tells the story of going through. I think she's actually having a miscarriage and all she does is pray Compline over and over and over. And she says in her book, When I could not pray, the church said, here are prayers. When I could not believe the church said, come to the table and be fed, when I could not worship the church saying over me the language of faith, inherited ways of prayer and worship. Liturgical practices are, a way that the ancient church built charon's for us to help us endure this mystery, to keep us on this path of faith, to guide us home. And that's an interesting thing, because going through seasons of not knowing how to pray, like I remember this moment where we were, I was like 2018 and I felt like we needed to be praying because, you know, I have grown up in this and I just remember like sitting with the kids and I was I was just like nit picking. 

Everything was like, sit still, do this, do that, stop doing that. Be more serious, blah, blah, blah. And then I was just like, I'm angry, God. And so it's manifesting in this moment by me just acting out anger with everyone. And then I was like, I'm going to give them this experience in prayer where they feel that tension. And I just like, I can't do it. So we just stopped for a long time, which was awful. I was just like, Oh, my gosh. Well, we read Harry Potter, and that felt great. But anyway, like but then in the midst of finding new languages of prayer as a family, we began to pray liturgical prayers and we started praying Compline. And, you know, there is there is something very beautiful about these memorized words that you recite together and the rhythm and the patterns of it and how that begins. You've talked about the wagon wheels in her mind, neuroplasticity. Like it builds a wagon wheel. Yep. 

And it's like in moments when you don't know how to pray, you have prayers. Yeah. Which is something I never experienced until recently. Right? that's a great point is. Explore lots of of prayer gateways or our styles like pray the Psalms, look at the liturgical prayers, pray those see how the mystics are entering into prayer. See how the Charismatics are entering into prayers. especially if you grew up in one of these traditions and need to of find a new pathway, then try a different one. These have been these have been all ways that we've experimented with in different times that have served us. And. Because I think prayer is recognizing that God is pursuing you. It's turning towards God to say, I know you're here and I'm going to acknowledge that and Then the next step can look a lot of different ways. But yeah,

I mean, I feel like I have spoken to me a lot through movies. Yeah, yeah. I just came to this season where God has been like, I know that it's God, because I'll just be like, everybody goes to bed relatively early earlier than I do. And so I usually stay up and read. And then periodically I'll just have this idea that feels like God, because it will be like you probably watch Moneyball and I'm like, I'm not a sports movie person, you know, like, that doesn't sound like a great idea. But then I was like, Well, maybe. And so I think in the last like five months, Moneyball, Erin Brockovich, Hacksaw Ridge, and then I think there was one more. But the theme in all of these films was unlikely candidates. Mm hmm. who end up changing the game? You have, an economist from Yale who changes the game of baseball. You have a single mother with no legal background, Erin Brockovich, who ends up changing the way that legal cases against major corporations, I mean, they win the largest class action suit like ever. You have Hacksaw Ridge, a pacifist goes to war, So I'll end up slowly over the course of a week watching a film and then be like react. Because I think there is this level at my, like, base core that feels imposter syndrome. 

Oh, that feels like, who am I to step into this? You know, I have always wanted to, I've always felt called to the church. But then there's these moments where I'm like, Can I really do this? Yeah. And then I feel like God's speaking to me through these movies. Like, yeah, people are always called Look at that, the entire narrative, the Bible. Right. Virgin's giving birth, you know, like, you know this guy who has no military experience being like Gideon, being the head of the army. You know, it's it's constantly like people who are unlikely. Yeah, because I think that's what it means to be human. We're all sort of unlikely, we enter the world. having to learn how to be people. Yeah. And then there's moments where we're kind of like finding purpose and vocation. But I do think that there that that is how God speaks to us to right through purpose and vocation. Like, Hey, there's this thing that you are created to do, right? 

It is an interesting thing, though, when you're called to the church and not but yet not invaded by the church. And it's there's the recall by God, not called by the church. what I think is interesting is like those stories Erin Brockovich and Moneyball, These weren't people that were in this profession to start with. And yet they changed the game. And so sometimes I feel like we feel that way because we're a little bit doing church in the wild. Yeah, we are not. I never thought I would. I mean, I came from a tradition where men would definitely not be theologians. Exactly. And so we've never necessarily felt called into the church by the church or invited into the church. By the church. We've we've caught we've felt called and invited in by God. And so it sometimes feels hard because you're like, Well, how do I change something that I'm not a part of? But it's it's cool to see, to see through historical fiction or even just through the Bible itself, that this is the way God works through centuries. And it is it's encouraging. And I think that what we want you to do is use your imagination to how God is inviting you into a story. And it could be a movie. It could be a book. It could be could be a walk in the park totally would be a a conversation with someone that God speaks to us through other people often, right? Yeah. So many of I think our prayer stories that we were sharing last night with each other are these hilarious moments of not being in prayer at all.

I was telling Patricia that I had a friend who, every time she saw puzzle pieces on the street, would feel like God was was thinking about her or kind of had a message for her. And so it's sort of holding this information. I've never I had never up until that point experienced God that way. And I was like, okay, hmm. Interesting. And, and and so one day I had gone to an appointment at a salon to get waxed And I am a chatty person by nature. And if I'm in an uncomfortable position, I get more chatty. And so getting your nether regions waxed is uncomfortable and therefore I get super chatty. And so I was chatting with this waxer and turned out that she also believed in God. And somehow we got into church and all of that and but she was super conspiracy theory oriented, which was my trigger. And she started talking about how she believed that like whatever revelation, whatever the world is going to hell in a handbasket. And these are my at this point in my life are triggers, huge triggers. So I am now pantsless and having a full blown anxiety attack. And so I walk out of that salon feeling raw in more than one way and I start walking down the street. Absolutely. out of my friggin mind. And I walk past the stoop sale and I, I look down and they have all these books and I am I am not there mentally. 

I am barely hanging on walking home from this from this appointment. And I looked at it and all the all these books, this one small book shoots out at me and go, It's 100 amazing facts about Guam. And as I talked about, we moved to Guam when I was ten. We were there for ten years as missionaries and and and like I don't see anything about Guam on the daily. I don't and especially not in Brooklyn, New York. And and so to see this book in a stoop sale, I was just like, what? And I stopped full stop. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, God's with me right now. And I looked up like tears welling in my eyes, trying not to cry at a soup sale. And and the lady was like, Oh, do you like that book? And I was like, I'm from here, just like blurted and she goes, You can have it. And it's like, Thank you. And I walked away and just started to weep because I was like. God. God. God is with me now in this. This singular panic attack. And it opened a gateway to believe that God was with me in every panic attack I had before and every moment of anxiety which actually rattled my life, which means he's always with me. You know, like these were this was a gateway moment to be like, maybe I can notice that God is with me in ways when I didn't when I didn't before. Or or maybe I can just notice that God is with me, period. Full stop. I love that. I think that that noticing is a huge a huge component.

It makes me think of Annie Dillard and her book, Pilgrims at Tinker Creek. Shucks. About learning to see And she just, has this moment of watching the light, reflecting in this tree, you know, and just like, noticing the light. And she says that, you know, she she can't create the light. All she can do is, get in its way. Mm hmm. And. And just like that, that, she talks about, learning to see is a pearl of gray price. And so I just read this little excerpt. She said when her doctors took her bandages off and led her into the garden, the girl who is no longer blind saw the tree with the lights in it. It was for this tree. I searched through the peach orchards of summer, in the forests of fall and down winter and spring for years. Then one day I was walking along Tinker Creek, thinking of nothing at all, and I saw the tree with the lights in it. I saw the backyard theater where their morning doves roost, charged and transfigured each cell buzzing with flame. I stood on the grass with the lights in it. Grass that was holy fire, utterly focused and utterly dreamed. It was like seeing then like being seen for the first time, seen knocked breathless by a powerful glance. The flood of fire abated, but I'm still spending the power. Gradually, the lights went out in the theater. The colors died, the cells inflamed and disappeared. I was still ringing. I had been my whole life a bell and never knew it until that moment I was lifted and struck. Oh, that's exactly how I felt in that moment. I just feels like because it's that moment of being seen, it like you see in a in a book from Guam where a tree with lights in it or something that's so specific. I'm almost, like, starting to cry. I know. I know. Because I'm just like. It's just like being a bell that's created. Yeah. Ring a particular song and God's the one striking us and adoration is it's just right. There's, like, reflection of, like you are there. Yeah. And I, I'm created to. To ring for you, right. Yeah. sometimes it's, it's easier to see when you're praying for someone else sometimes. And that's been another gateway for me.

Several years ago, I started I went into this new coffee shop in the neighborhood that was right by the church office. I went in and I met the girl behind the counter. and we started to talk. I tell her I'm a pastor and she's like, oh, I, I married a pastor once and I was like, Woo, out. So sorry about that because she had quickly elaborated that he was not a nice guy. They are no longer married, you know, he cheated on her like just a lot of crappy stuff, right? Done in the name of of God. In the name of church. and she carried a lot of shame because she was in her mind living in ways currently that were kind of against what the church had prescribed to her as a young person. And I said, you know what? Of course you are. Because if I had been hurt by the church as badly as you had been hurt, I'd be not living in the way they told me to either. And so I was like, I think you can, like, give yourself a lot of grace. And so we we would see each other, you know, three or four times a week as I went and got coffee and we'd talk and she'd kind of share and we'd and I just sort of I remember feeling like Hey, you need to lower the bar for yourself and God loves you. You, if you want to come back and talk to him, great, do it. And if not, like, just don't blame yourself. Okay? And then it was probably like three, three or four weeks after we had gotten to know each other, my husband actually went into the coffee shop and he left and he called me. He was like, Hey, And I said, Oh, hey, how she doing? 

She was like, She's not great. Her dad's in the hospital. It's not it doesn't look good. And I was like, Oh, my gosh. Okay. And she said, I went in. I was like, can I pray for you? So my husband prays for her. and it was like two weeks we we texted back and forth, she's up at the hospital. Her dad's not doing well. I'm sad. And I go away to an Airbnb because it's like winter break or something. And I'm sitting on this couch looking over the mountains and it's beautiful. And I just go, I just feel like, Oh, I got to check in and see how is doing. And I texted her and I'm like, Hey, how are you? How's your dad? And she texted back. He died on Monday. It's Wednesday and I sat there and looked out the window and I was like, Oh my gosh. This whole thing has been about the fact that you knew she couldn't be Without you when her dad died. This wasn't about her to her. This wasn't about her history. This wasn't about her feeling bad. About the way she's living. This was about building a a foundation for six weeks of just being like, hey, God's around. God still loves you. God's not expecting anything from you. Don't worry. To the moment where her dad dies, where I believe so deeply, God was like, I want her to know I'm here. I haven't abandoned her. I'm not angry at her. I'm just here. Her Heavenly Father is here when her earthly father won't be. And I was just like, That's you. That's who you are. You are constantly pursuing us. And it was the same feeling I felt for myself that morning with the Good Book that I finally felt for someone else. And then those are the moments where you're like, This is who God is and this feels safe and this is the person. This is the God that I want to spend time with that I am and all over like his, the depth of his love for others and getting invited into that is why.

I had this moment where I was like walking past the coffee shop and just felt compelled to stop in. And I was like, I don't want to go into the coffee shop. It's like, I own it. I'm going to end up working there, right? But like, I just I was like now going and I walk in and I saw this guy and I just was like, Hey, how are you? We started chatting and his mom had just recently passed away. And, you know, one of the things that I have learned in 2019 is how to sit and grieve. Yeah. And I just was like, hey, like, you know, I've got some time. Like, can I sit with you? And slowly in this moment, he started to cry and he was like, I just haven't had the time or the moment to sit and cry. And he's sitting there in the coffee shop crying and grieving over this loss. And I was like. Wow. That being compelled to go out of my way for 2 minutes, you know, meant I got to sit with someone. I mean, it was longer than 2 minutes, but, like, man, I got to sit with someone and and hold them in this moment. And I think what you're saying is so spot on. It's like we turn it into that's, you know, these formulas that like formation is formulaic, like you're going to do this and then the outcome will be, I don't know, I don't even know what we think sentence going into it. But it's always relational, right? Because God is relational God. So it's like being with people in, you know, in hurting and brokenness and pain. Like that's where we find God. That's where we are used by God. And I just love, I love that story. I just think it's so beautiful. Yeah.

When we delight over other people, we feel God's delight. When we sit with people in their anger or their grief. We we understand God's compassion like I think sometimes prayer is less about prayer and more about being present in your relationship, being present in your moment. And one of the things that I think I've learned in exploring some of the more prophetic streams of prayer is that God's presence is in the present. You know, oftentimes as humans, we're so caught up. I'm an anxious person where I talk about I'm always caught up in what could happen, what might happen, what should happen or whatever, which means I'm not present. My brain is always flying forward. But when I take that moment to say I am here now, God is here now, God is in the future, yes, also, but we experience him in the now. And so one of the things I think I've a practice that I have learned through guided prayer and and also just motherhood is is taking whatever you're doing in the moment, doing it in the present. So like I learned to practice prayer while I'm vacuuming because it's a moment when it's, it's actually super loud, but because you can't hear anyone else talking, I just sort of like use the white noise of the vacuum to take a moment and be like, You're here with me now and or washing dishes or whatever task I'm doing. If my emotions aren't pointed towards my little ones or my husband or a friend, then I'm doing the task with my hands means it's a moment that I can just be like, okay, got it. Just me and you here washing these dishes, And let me just notice I mean, notice that you're here with me, that you care where I'm either happy that I get this moment of bringing space free or you're you care that I feel like I hate that I'm washing dishes for the 400th time today. You know, whatever it is you're here in this moment with me and that just one little itty bitty way to enter into prayer is just be present and just notice and say, I noticed you here.

I love that. I love that so much. one of the things that really changed prayer for me is just. Really noticing that the way I had been praying for Gareth wasn't really praying, it was just complaining about him to God. a while back I started reading through some journals I had been keeping and I was like, Wow, this is mostly just me being like, Why? Like, it just was I just this litany of complaints that were so petty, you know? And and I do think that this is why God gave us girlfriends. Yeah. Amen. It's not necessarily prayer. And so anyway, like, I'm realizing, like, as I'm looking at these kind of like that, that it was like, what if I just felt convicted about it and it was like, what if instead of just being like, you know, Gareth doesn't bring me coffee, which is so ridiculous, I think it literally said that or whatever, you know like it was like, God, thank you for making him who he is, like learning to notice who he was. And so I began to like keep this new journal that was just like, you know, instead of like and that thing, that petitioning, like, you know, God help us to be more help us to more, help us to be more. Right? It's like, you know, to be more devoted, to be more spiritual, to be more faithful like instead of like any of that present in this new journal, it was just like, God, I love the way that he loves people. Thank you for giving him your love for people. 

God, I love the way that he's so kind. And the he's like, even if he's in the middle of a difficult, challenging moment, he's still kind. That's your kindness. And it comes from you and it's a gift card. Thank you for his joy. Yes, in the morning it feels like a lot. But your joy comes to us in the morning. He carries your joy. he always has a giant smile plastered it really, truly. He just he just is that person. Yeah. And and it's it's a gift to carry joy like that, you know, and instead of it being like, you know, I need you to series up, you know, it's like being like, think, thank God that you're not more like me than if they were. We're both like Enneagram eight. It would be awful. But like, as I begin to just notice him, it's like, you know, it's like. Like her noticing the bell or you noticing being or like it's like, how does he think this is what it is? As I begin to just reflect on who God had made him, yeah, I began to see more and more of the beauty that he carried. Yeah. And it changed my, my relationship with him I did one like five day fast and it was a faster for the Book of Joel. And it was kind of a really hilarious moment because I was in the midst of my own personal revival and I didn't feel like Gareth was quite on board, like she was not there yet. And I was like reading, this book by Heidi Baker, and I was like weeping. And we were camping. And instead of being present with my family, I was sitting and spiritually consuming this book about faith. And then afterwards it was a Sunday. I was like, Let's go to let's go to church. We're packing up her bag. And I'm like, I'm going to go to the evening service. And Gareth was like, I don't really want to go to the evening service. And I was just like,

Are you even a Christian? I was just like, God, how you gave me this man. Like, I just was like, so, like, frustrated because I'm like, how are we going to. And it's and, you know, this frustration of, like, so I was like, you know what? I'm fasting the book of Joel. And in the midst of it, I kind of felt like, you know, like taking back the years the locusts have eaten, blah, blah, blah, blah. All this stuff like a fast of like God's breaking forth and every man and woman and child and servant or whatever. And I kind of felt like in the midst of it that I was going to see Gareth rather cliched. I am only laughing because I have that, but not this exact thing. And at the end of the week I was super angry. I can't imagine, you know, and like, I mean, it was beautiful. There was a lot of beautiful moments in it. Like, I think fasting is important. And I had felt called to that fast. And I do think, God, that did a lot through it, but not changing it. That's not what I think. It was like sort of out of this moment that I started shifting how I prayed. Yeah. And I think out of that, like I started to see him. So it was really me that needed to change in this wild way. But it was such a huge it was such a big deal. And I do think that's a classic Christian thing of like we're going to be so devoted on prayer by figuring out all those things. I can pray for you to make you change and be better. And you know it is it faster? Stronger? Yes. Whatever. I think that focus on all the places we need to be better or more spiritual or or perform more or read the Bible more or be more devoted to prayer. Like it it's sort of the same is like only holding on to confession. It just it just keeps us feeling like we're failing at not being close to God instead of just noticing, like, only Dillard and and the bell, being rung. because you see the light in a tree and, you know, it pushes you into worship, it's like when we begin to notice God in the people around us, in the world, around us, we begin to ring with that worship because we're not trying to change people. We're just loving them. Yes.

We're going to end with a little prayer I wrote in. My kids were really little God, that may day be an act of worship before you as I wake up to that kids demands and I have to hit the ground running. I worship you, I will preserve your goodness and for your faithfulness to me. I don't need to prove that I have value. You give me value. You are my value. If I'm doing dishes, maybe for your glory. If I'm making food, let it be for your glory. My heart will be steadfast to you today. our prayer for you is that you would find God in the details of your life. And remember that he's pursuing you. Yeah. All right, we'll talk to you then.

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This podcast is a production of Worship Lab, and recorded in Brooklyn New York. Our executive producer is Armistead Booker. And our technical director is Gareth Manwaring.

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This is an old prayer journal. And I'm just going to read a couple little excerpts. June 20 snuck away to a coffee shop to meet with you. Excited, filled with anticipation to hear what you have to say to me. July 5th. I'm coming to the word this morning with a bad attitude, with self-righteousness. Reading the story of Samson to build a case against Pentecostalism rather than to find and fall in love with Jesus. April 15th. Long week. People visiting. Staying with us. Long week without devotions or quiet. Time Still, I felt you speak. I've seen your goodness. I felt your presence tonight. As I listened to some videos about Paul, I realized why you've prompted my spirit to be in the Old Testament. Jesus and Paul were Jews. Oh, it's true. He's a truly understand what you said. Jesus. What you said through Paul. Holy Spirit. I need to know Moses and the law and the prophets. Thank you for your faithfulness and patience and singing the same song. the first moment I realized Jesus was a Jew.