Hi, Aaron. We're so excited to have you. I'm so excited to be here. Actually, that's right. We wanted to get to know you just a teeny bit before we we dove into the good stuff, but. Okay. First, what's your standard coffee order? Well, I am very picky. I've grown increasingly pickier. Black coffee all the way. And I really prefer an aeropress or a pour over from micro roasted beans. I don't. I don't really. Unless I'm on a road trip, I'm not above a gas station. Cup of coffee. I'll do. I love a gas station, but I agree on pick and choose and that I want to go to a local coffee shop that that roaster of beans and, and gives me a really European like a powerful cup. I love that we've got a powerful cup. I deeply I deeply identify with that. Have you ever been in a in a coffee desert? I, I that's what I call when I'm at my in-laws house where it's like the land of Craig's. And it's just impossible So I, I have a travel aeropress that I bring with me wherever I go, and I bring freshly ground beans in a Ziploc bag. Wherever I go, I bring coffee. That's right. Just in case you. You have to. You really have to. Okay. So our next question, what is a Bible story that you love? I love the story. And I should be better at this being pastor for so many years. But I don't know. I think it's the mark and it's the it's the the woman that touches Jesus in the crowd. The bleeding. Yes. I so deeply resonate with that woman. And I try to think organically think of people this way most of us are her reaching out and the kind of bravery and the courage and the desperation that it took. And then also Jesus's reaction of like in the midst of chaos. I see you and I recognize you. And you are you are worthy of my attention. There's so many so much of that that strikes a chord with me. Yeah, it's beautiful. I really love the idea, too, of the chaos of the moment. I don't think I've really thought of Jesus seeing her in the chaos before. It's like I've thought a lot about her reaching towards him, but just his noticing. Yeah, yeah. That's so good. Yeah. I read something recently by Thomas Merton I'm going to try to paraphrase it, but he talked about how when you reach a certain communion with Christ and a certain intimacy, you are at peace in the midst of chaos like you are the calm and to the storm. You can be nonviolent in the face of violence and That story reminds me of that part quote. Yeah, well, so good. Yeah. All right. We're all about honesty with the Bible here. And I know you are, too. So what is a story that is not your favorite or that you struggle with And you take that question open ended. Yeah. So much of the Old Testament, but I really struggle with it. there's not one particular passage, but there are preached a number of disturbing passages over the years from like, Hey, I'll read it out loud. I'm like, This is messed up, isn't it? This is in the Bible. What do we do with that? So pretty much any story in the Old Testament that involves violence. I'm a pacifist, so I have a nonviolent view of Christ. And I think there's a lot of power in living out a cruciform lifestyle. So when I take the cross in and I wade into the Old Testament, I'm like, Whoa, this looks different than Jesus. How do I reconcile this? So that's totally fair. I just want to honor the fact that you're like, I'll read it to you. You know, you're not you're not also trying to skip over it. You know, I think that. Yeah, unfair. I think we're we're on the same page here. so we got the. The most important things out of the way, your coffee and your Bible stories. But tell us just a little bit about yourself, like your background, culturally and spiritually. Just kind of like what sets you up as you. Yeah. So. one of my favorite segments has been Rector. I don't know, some sort of good writer. Love and rapture. We are. Yeah, but director is amazing. My wife introduced me to him. My wife and I have very few musicians that we both like. Yes, but Ben Rector is one of them. And he has a song that called it's called The Men That Drive Me Places. And I resonate with one particular line in that song, he sings. Maybe you're dealt a good hand and played the best that you can, but I don't know how far you'll walk without those cards. So to summarize my journey, my life, I have been dealt a really good hand. so much of who I've become and what I've done. It's because of the people in my life. So, like, my mom was born and raised in apartheid South Africa, and I grew up hearing stories of her experience there as a pastor's kid. My grandparents were church planters in South Africa. Grandpa literally built a church. He was a carpenter. Wow. And I'm like, wow. The metaphor that the coming out of there with Christ and the stories it grew up on and, you know, my grandpa being a hero of mine and his boldness and risk taking nature really rubbed off on me. Hmm. All that really played. Played into my life and my spiritual journey. My wife has taught me so much about communication and empathy and seeing the best in people and giving people the benefit of the doubt. And so all of this has just rubbed off on me over the years. And so I feel like I have been blessed. And that includes like Patricia and I met six, seven years ago through the V3 movement. And so many people I've met through the V3 movement and the community and the friendships and the relationships that continue, I'm like, man, I, I just get to see glimpses and all of these people have rubbed off on me in some way. That's been really beautiful. But more specifically, I think over the last 20 years, I've, I've met in a variety of organizations, places. I'm kind of a serial entrepreneur. I started out as a public school teacher. baseball coach. Wow. And then I became a youth pastor at a church plant in Arizona and then at a church in Colorado. And then my wife and I were recruited to start a church in the Washington, D.C. area, and that was back in like 2010, 2011. We did that for ten years and we just resigned a couple of years ago and handed it off to local leaders that were in our church. And we had a collaborative leadership model. So it played out really well they're in really good hands and doing wonderful things now. And also missional church planning coach for the V3 movement. And then we started a nonprofit a few years ago called Seeds and Water Collective, and essentially it was kind of birth out of our church planting experience at church in Maryland. It's called Restore Church. The Seeds Water Collective was out of that and it's it's all restored people who are on the board and we basically want to help people who have been hurt or marginalized by religion recover and rediscover faith. Oh, and I also work part time for Survey Group International and I work we work with Muslim refugees who are resettling in Europe. And I coach a couple of church planners there who are working with that specific population. And I also work full time at a seminary here in the Indianapolis area, and it's a super progressive seminary. It's a fascinating environment to be in. So basically, my my journey is yeah, it's called Christian Theological Seminary. It's on the campus of Butler University here in Indy. And I just like to have a ton of different stuff going at the same time. I figured that out. I love that. yeah. And I have my wife, Karen. Three kids, three teenage boys. We've been married 20 years, and we we just love to travel and explore and try new places to eat. And we have a really cute dog who's a super wimpy dog. His name is Rudy. Yeah. Yeah, that's. I'm going to watch my hometown basketball team, the Indiana Pacers. I'm a huge NBA fan there in the playoffs tonight. So yeah that's that's Aaron Thomas and at a drive by

How did you become so comfortable with people, asking the hard questions of faith or even being willing to recognize that church here happens? Much of this journey began for me in 2010. I was overseeing the student ministry department at I think the third fastest growing church in the U.S.. It was, you know, I got caught up in that church growth movement stuff. Mm hmm. And one of my closest friends committed suicide. Wow. And he was a fellow pastor. He was someone I had actually trained and kind of gently nudged into youth ministry. Mm hmm. And he had five kids, and it was the most tragic thing that ever happened in my life. And I remember it was the first time I really experienced heartbreak and grief for the first time. Mm hmm. And I was haunted by emotions. I never felt like guilt and deep conviction of not seeing the pain that he was in and of not being a better friend. And then I was super angry with fellow Christians, and the two churches I'd been at out West were people I loved dearly, but there were a lot of them that had very insensitive and judgmental reactions to his suicide. Yeah. And so the way the way his church and the way my church handled his death was appalling to me. Mm hmm. So I'm mourning the loss of my friend. I'm lamenting the way that Christians, including myself at the time, viewed the loss. Mm hmm. And I just started to have this internal longing for a deeper and more intimate faith with Christ. It was kind of like, this can't be what Jesus had in mind. This cannot be the representation that he had in mind of. Of someone who. Of a family in pain. Of a man in pain. Yeah. This can't be it. And so it really began the start of my deconstruction where I started really asking hard questions. And it was it began what I think over the next ten years. I called it the wilderness. It was a long journey of exploration. There's more to it. But that was kind of the start. Yeah. That deconstruction journey for me, I it does feel like that's the way in when you're either holding your own pain or someone else's pain or both, you know? You know, you're in that moment where you're like. This can't be what Jesus intended, you know, or I'm looking for some kind of comfort that's not being offered. through God's people, you know, through the church. And you'd think that the church would be so good at knowing how to sit in pain and. Yeah, well, you'd think that that would be sort of like our birthright, you know, like knowing how to be close to the brokenhearted and to weep with those who weep. you know,

What are some of the tools that you've learned or that you share with other people? Yeah. When they're in these moments and on this journey. you've had a long journey of your own, and then you've begun holding other people's journey through seeds and water. Yeah. So, like, you know, his death sparked that journey. And basically over the next ten years, I just started saying yes to everything that I thought I might find out there. And I started experimenting with various prayer practices and spiritual disciplines. I started seminary. I started devouring the writings of Christian mystics like Henry Now and and Thomas Merton, so many others. I started meeting with a counselor for the first time, a spiritual director. Basically, if it crossed my path and I felt like Christ might be there, I tried it and every place he met me, he gave me a piece of who he was, a glimpse of his true nature, how to help others find him, and that as well. Like he brought different people into my life, like. Two people in particular in Maryland who were like my shepherds through hell. Like they I really felt like God introduced me to these two men and they walked through hell with me. And all this is why I'm like starting a church. I'm pastoring a church. I'm an absolute wreck spiritually. I mean, there were many Sunday mornings where I would be weeping. No, behind a door or a curtain somewhere before I would go out, preach, because, like, I couldn't get my shit together. And and it was it it was such a strange season of finding these intimate moments and these amazing light bulb moments with Christ, but also dealing with intense pain and doubts and anger and questions. And so as I started. To find this intimacy with Christ through really pursuing some of the ancient ways of connecting with God. I started to see other people in a different light, and God and my heart broke for people like in the LGBTQ community, refugees like people who were who were victims of war and people who were oppressed by systemic racism, the people who struggled with housing insecurity and all of these people existed in our church community. And then as I started to love them and our church our leadership started, to love people in the way that Christ would want us to love them. We started experiencing the kind of rejection that they have gotten. Yeah, you know, I'd say it taste like we had churches who had my home church baptized with us. Or we had all of we had all the church planning organizations that had supported us cut ties with us. Well, my entire management team stepped off. They did it. They did it well. They did it lovingly. But we just started to be abandoned and rejected. Yeah. And so it was like, whoa! it was this just crazy roller coaster ride of. Well, the closer you get to Christ and intimate with him, the more you behave. I felt like try to be him to others. It makes people who have had power more control it. It messes with them. So it was it? Yeah. It was a fascinating journey. At least I don't even remember what the first question you asked me that I did doesn't even matter because I'm like, so in exactly what you're saying. I agree. I could not agree more with literally every beautiful. Yeah. I think when you become process oriented for yourself or when you when you let compassion enter the equation for yourself, immediately Jesus opens up your eyes to compassion for others, like you can manufacture compassion or empathy for others. And I think the church has actually that's what they've been doing. I mean, this is my total opinion. But like, I think the church has been manufacturing compassion and empathy for those for decades or centuries maybe. And then when you actually become and receive God's compassion for yourself, Jesus completely open your eyes and is like, Oh, this is how you can be compassionate. This is how you can yeah, this is how you can hold other people's pain and see the image of God created them. I don't know. That was the gateway for me to is just like. People giving me language to have compassion for myself. Allowed me to have true compassion for others. And and then also this just deep longing for us all to experience together spiritually as a community. I was reading Water Buffalo Theology this morning. and Koyama Kozak, was talking about just the crucified mind and just how particular God is and how we turn it into theologies that are doctrine, you know, that are they're about belief structures or belief systems rather than actualizing love. And he made this comment about iced tea in about like, if if you see someone who's thirsty and you're telling them about all the goodness and the qualities of iced tea, that's different than actualizing. Yeah. You know, some sort of brown liquid in ice cubes in a glass and handing it over to someone. I think we're called to become love. Yeah. And I think the Bible models, inclusion and people on the margins being pulled into family and yeah. just such a crazy story to think about all these people walking away from what looks like the kingdom of heaven breaking out. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you said that. Yeah. Just, you know, people in power. It makes people so uncomfortable. It does. I can tell. It's like I've gotten used to being able to read people's faces. Yeah, I story sharing, you know, a story about loving someone in that way. And I'm like, Oh, you're super uncomfortable, but I'm weirdly becoming a little bit of my favorite part. Yeah, I know. Me too, Are you all into the Enneagram? Have you taken any, Graham? Yes. Okay. So what? I'm an eight. What are you guys. I'm an aid. Ahmed, too. I'm a straight line. Okay, so, I mean, as AIDS like this there, you know, and I'm married to a nine who is like it's harmony all get along. Yes. So somehow we're happily married for 20 years. I'm always trying to raise hell and she's always trying. And I know let's let's all get along. Let's love each other. You know, comparing it really is fine. I think, you know, that was interesting about this this conversation that we're having and what we as we were talking about talking to you, the the the subject of being pastored came up I don't wanna take Patricia's story. We can cut this out, but like, the reason we're here is because Patricia felt pastor by you. But, oh, I was looking for people to pastor me so personally, I was trying to heal from moments of trauma, and I didn't feel like that was being offered. And I was finding like just like what you were saying. I was finding them in in the mystics as finding them in mental health care. I was finding it through spiritual direction. people were finally giving me tools and language and process around meeting Jesus face to face. And and I was like just trying to soak up all like any pathway I could find because all of the traditional pathways that I had been given my entire life, I grew up in church too. We're falling flat like we're falling empty for find flat weren't helping anymore. They were triggering more than anything. And I think it's just beautiful that we're taking this thing that we had to do for ourselves. And you've created a ministry around it. That's the heart of what we want to do, too, is just like. Make pathways for people that are really personal and really practical and super compassionate to yeah. To meet the face of Jesus. To meet, to meet God. And yeah, just I don't know, I don't even know where we're going with that. But I really appreciate it. I resonate deeply with that. That's like what seeds and water are are. One core belief is we want people to experience Jesus, that's it. But we're throwing all the other shit out there is trying like, okay, all these churches put all these belief statements up on their website and it's basically like, how tall are you going to make the fence? Yes, because I'm not into that. I'm like just get people into communion with Christ and get the heck out of his way. Right. Just let him do his thing. Yeah. Freaking is the freaking savior of the world. He literally went to death in beat and rose again. Like, I know he knows what he's doing. I don't know, to do the work for him. And that was so relieving too of like I don't have I don't have to like keep the fence up. You know, he's here for you. Do here for me, Yeah. Yeah.

let me think of a quick story? I was up reading one night and ready to go to bed at 130 and had just climbed in bed when my doorbell rang. Oh. And at first I was like, Oh, my gosh, you're being robbed. And I tried to wake up Gareth, but he in deep sleep, so he was like, Fine, I'll deal with that myself. So thinking by the time I got upstairs, I was like, It's more likely that a neighbor just couldn't get in the door. So I opened the door and there was this young person, a person of color, trans woman, and she and not someone who I had seen in the building. And she was like, Oh, my friend lives on the third floor. And then I'm like, I can't even ask who the friend is because I don't know my neighbors that well. So I'm just trying to figure out what to do in this moment. And she's like, Ah, my phone died. I'm trying to meet up with my friend. And so I had this moment and I'm just like, Why don't you just come in and change your phone? so we go in the kitchen and I realize in retrospect that I never turned the lights on, which is super creepy. So we're sitting in the diner. She's charging her phone. I'm like, this feels like a neighborly thing or I'm going to get killed. Like, it's like it's like one or the other. The fine line by line. She was like, How much does a place like this cost is? Like, I'm going to get murdered. And then she's like, charging her phone. And it turns out she was one building off. It was like the building up, but. Oh, that's right. She turns out your phone were chatting. you know, like a little background where she'd come from, I think like Midwest and had done a bajillion different kinds of jobs. And in the midst of this moment, she looks at me and she's like, you know, I really think I wanted us to meet. And I just, you know, in New York City, people don't often offer things that they think God wants in conversation, you know? So it's like the middle of the night. I'm in this crazy moment with this person. I don't know. And she's looking at me and she's like, I really felt like God wanted us to me. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I do, too. and then I just was like, Man, you know what? Here I am reading all night all this stuff about the heart of God. And then God's like, You know what? I'm going to invite you in to just caring for someone who's phones dead and who's in the wrong place And you're going to get to love them for this one moment, and you're going to meet me in the midst of it. Yeah. And I think there's so much joy when we open our hearts to people, you know, when we take the risk on people. Yeah. To just believe that image bearing means that they, they carry God's DNA in the midst of their complexity of being a person. Yeah. They're also caring beauty. Yeah. yeah, yeah, she told me that story the next day. I was like, you did what? And that it was just this gorgeous story of See God's love. Oh, I love it. Me experiencing God. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, sorry. I went from thinking I was going to get murdered to being like, God sees me. Yeah. Like, God picked me to be awake to open my door. Yeah. Yeah. So that she would not be on the corner feeling freaked out in the moment. I just felt like this wild. I don't know. It was a wild moment. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess, like, that whole beautiful Mysticism of finding God outside of the, you know, the four walls of the church service. Yeah. Finding him in the mystery, in. In neighborliness, Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, moving back to the prayer. Well, we yeah. So it turns out we had lots of things talked about today, but one of the things that we really want to talk to Aaron about was prayer and prayer practices. as we come into kind of focusing in on prayer. Aaron, what's your working definition of prayer? No. Right answer. Probably phrased the primary way the card shapes us. Wow. I like that. Yeah, that's right. Right. Yeah, that's a yeah. Kind of my personal definition of it. I think I heard someone say it once that I remember he said that, but. Yes, I agree. That's my definition. Yeah. I'm just writing it down. Okay.

Patricia, why are we talking to Aaron about. Oh, yeah. A few years ago, I took a marketplace ministry course with V3, which is a grassroots church planting movement, and it was a really cool opportunity. There was a guy starting a donut shop, some amazing people in construction. There was some people working with the immigrant community. I think maybe in Detroit, I can't remember exactly, but we were all practitioners who were not professional. Uh, we weren't pastors, we were, we were doing, we were being the church outside of the church. And so it was kind of unique opportunities to be in a group like that. And we were part of this nine month course with Aaron and this woman, Shayla, who are both amazing. And very quickly, in the beginning we were introducing ourselves and I think the idea was we were supposed to reflect on something that was four words like Stop stuck, start. Do you know what would the fourth one have been stuck? Stop. Like, where do you feel stuck? What do you think you need to stop? And what do you think you need to start? Okay. Yeah, yeah. Is that like that? Is that. And I just blurted out, I don't pray anymore. And and then we kicked her out of the group and that was the end of the story. And I was like, What do you mean by that? Like, what do you mean by prayer? And I think it was such an interesting question because I don't think I had a working my working definition growing up performance material and then having a wild, ecumenical, charismatic, whatever mix was somewhere between prayers, offering your desires to God because he cares for us. And there's like intercessory praying over people believing, that you could somehow be in the midst of God's heart in this beautiful moment and It just felt that none of that felt comfortable. I didn't know how to wrestle with God caring for us in the midst of the aftermath of 2018 and the car accident and all these things. And I also didn't feel like I could pray for people, you know, again, just based off of parts of my story. And so that was such an insightful question because it made me. Think about what? What do I even mean when I say prayer? And then Aaron was just like, Well, maybe we should pray differently. and then invited me into a prayer group he was doing where it was going through some of these different practices, which was so wild. I had never experienced anything like that. So yeah, it was a really, it was like honestly a huge turning point moment for me because it wasn't like, well, you have to figure out why you're not praying. There was no shame, there was no judgment, there was no like get it back on track, you know, it was just like, do it. Yeah. I was just like, Oh, that's okay. You know, like, there's, there's space for that. And I don't know, I just didn't, I didn't expect that and I hadn't. Yeah. So it was just, it was just like you never know the little comments you have in passing, how they can completely alter someone's life. But that was one for me. And that was one of my. Wow. Yeah. I cling to that and in the low moments, do it for me. That's right. I'm so glad.

Through your spiritual journey, which has obviously been very vast. How has your prayer life evolved or has prayer evolved in your life? I think I should say. So a metaphor that I commonly think about is. I'd grown up in a. Like a Bible believing church. And so the Bible I viewed as like the beach. If we're talking about the ocean. it's there. It's tangible. I can touch it. I can see every. Every part of it. Mm hmm. Um, but part of my journey into prayer life was I started to doubt what scripture was or what I've been told about Scripture. And I had been told and to summarize it, that Scripture was the primary way that we were spiritually formed. I've come to believe that Scripture is the primary source of information we have about Jesus and that spiritual formation. That's the Holy Spirit. That's not Scripture. And that's why I've kind of headed and stopped when I started to doubt. Scripture, but I started to step into prayer. So the metaphor. I started to step into the waters of the ocean. Yeah. And I started praying the Psalms. like probably the most formation part of my journey was I went to prayer school with Brian Zand. Is this pastor, an author in Missouri he's kind of one of my pastors even though he doesn't know me. We've met once, but I went through it's prayer school. And so I started praying the Psalms and the way I would pray is I would sing them. I would, like, chant them the way he taught me. And it it created a rhythm and a peace. And I now, you know, I have 23 Psalm 91 memorized. And I often sing those to myself in anxious moments because it really it slows me down. It takes me to a peaceful place. And then I got into liturgical prayer. And so, you know, memorizing the Apostles Creed and a different, you know, an additional rhythm of prayer. And then I got into contemplative prayer. and then listening and healing prayer. And that was kind of like wading into going over my head in the ocean. Like, I, I'm scared. This is scary. I'm completely out of control. but that is where. Much of my life, much of my spiritual life changed. I came to know Christ in a really in a different way. Was three contemplative prayer and listening and healing prayer. And he started to reveal work like one. One example is I've always had a bit of an insecurity complex, like a chip on my shoulder. And through listening and healing prayer, God took me back through a mental journey snapshot of my life, and he took me back to the very first moment that I ever felt inferior. Wow. Yeah, it was super powerful. And basically he met me in that moment and he said, what you feel in this moment, that's not true. Well, it's not. It's a lie that you've come to believe about yourself and. So that was kind of the journey. It was like praying, prayer, school, praying, psalms, liturgical prayer. Contemplative prayer, listening and healing prayer. And. All of that. It has been part of the journey over the last 14 years or so. Wow. Yeah. I love the imagery of the ocean and just like stepping into the water. And also, I think you said something important about listening in healing prayer where we're no longer in control, you know, like that. Yeah. And I think that's really hard for Americans. Mhm. To feel in control. So I think. Yes. To have like a practice where you learn to. Like acknowledge that that discomfort of of laying that down but but finding God in that I mean that what a beautiful journey in a that truth spoken over you. Yeah. You can't you just can't get there rationally. It has to be. A spiritual encounter with God. Yeah. Yep. And I've always found God in the water. Like God meets people in different places. And for me, it's the ocean. that's a place that God tends to meet me. In a way, that metaphor made sense to me because I like, you know, the Bible's there, the beaches there. I can always swim back in. And, you know, the verses and the scriptures that are for my life, too, are still there. But it's a different thing when you start chasing the spirit and it just. You can't control it. Yeah. Yeah. You can't know it and. It rubs, like Patricia said, it rubs against every instinct we have as Americans. Yeah. Yeah. So I am like, have we been separated? Are we twins? I mean, I mean, I think there's something so beautiful about the metaphor of the ocean because it's so vast and God is so vast and so beautiful. And I agree. I've had a lot of those moments on the shore. Yeah. Looking out at the waves. Where? from the mystic tradition. Like the veil feels so thin there where I just meet the presence of God.

one of the other reasons we really want to talk about prayer, especially for us as as women, you know, we're both working mothers. Sometimes it just feels inaccessible because we have no time and until space. And so what I love about your approach to prayer is that it is so personal to the way your mind works, the way that you know, the way your life is set up. Yeah. I guess maybe because you just speak to that for a minute. Like what? What do you say? It was not just a women thing, you know, it's a busy thing. Sounds like you have, like, 15 to 20 balls in the air at all times. Yeah. Yeah. What does that look like to you? That kind of. Be shaped by yea. Yea, yea. It's interesting because we we all have these different seasons of life, right? Like we all know, you know, for those of us who are married or who are parents. The season of life before that happened, it was like, whoa, that was a lot different than my my rhythms and behavior. I get it totally different. And then I know, you know, when I'm an empty nester, my rhythms are going to be different. So I think everybody has to kind of find what rhythm works for them. For me, I'm not a daily prayer guy. I don't wake up and at 6 a.m. m, I'm doing a liturgy for an hour. I'm still I'm still trying to figure out what that is right now. And it's our rhythm completely disrupted because I have a full time job. I have a boss. I had a boss in a long, long time. Like, I have like, oh, I have like I can't just do whatever the heck I want anymore, you know, with my day and time. I do like to go to Vienna on the way to work. I listen to that, and I listen to it at night right before I fall asleep. And To be honest, we've faced some really intense personal challenges over the last year, and I needed someone else to guide me through prayer, and I didn't have it in me. I was like, Now I need a pastor. And so I started listening to like, Oh no, like T.O. 365 is what it's called. I was like, I really want to link a couple of resources for Guided Prayer because they've been really instrumental, especially in my moments. Like you're saying, when you're when I left the church, I was in this really? Dead place. There's no other word for it, you know? And I needed someone to just be like, now we're going to focus our mind on on the presence of God. Here, let me read this over you breathe and then, you know, go about your day. it's a an incredible resource. It is. It's wonderful. And it's another one I've used is the Pause app, which I, I love. So yeah, I literally. I'm about to come to Brooklyn and I was separated at birth. I think that each person has to kind of figure out what works for me, because if it's someone like like the app that guides you into the presence of Christ in the midst of your commute But yeah, I think everybody has to kind of figure out, you know, we take I take every vacation day I'm given. Yeah. And so we go on a vacation for a week in the summer. We go in the fall, we go at Thanksgiving, and then we go in the spring. So we our our family vacations and when we vacation. I really tried to get Sabathia about it. like for our spring break, we went out to Sedona, Arizona, and we hiked and we offloaded like we wanted to be in the midst of God's creation and beauty. And I've just I've always gravitated to that. I mean, I am I'm a almost like hyper Salafi like no hardly anybody I know SAB as well. Mhm. Oh yeah. And so that, that's been the biggest thing for my prayer journey is to learn how, to learn how to rest because it's there. It's only when I sit my ass down, shut up and be quiet and turn my technology off. Yeah, but I can hear the voice of God or I can feel his presence. Yes. And if it's constant noise and constant rushing around, even on vacation, like that's you're not you're not going to be rest. You're not going to be rested. You're not going to connect. You're not going to be formed. It's good, man.

It really is so true. You can't. totally separate. rest in prayer. It's not that you can't pray in the busy. You can't. Absolutely can. But I think when I finally learned even the mechanics of rest, even though I still don't do it super well and it takes a lot of work to find spaces of it. Once I learn the mechanics of rest I learned a new way to be with Jesus. Mhm. Yeah. And it's, it's still an incredible learning process but. Yeah. I actually think that is the secret sauce is Sabbath is rest like you. I would contend that over talking about it. I'm kind of processing this out loud. Totally. I would contend that you can't. You won't be able to learn how or you won't be able to pray the way that we've talked about. Unless until you learn how to Sabbath. Well, until you learn how to rest. I, I agree. I think what you're saying is find the way that works for you. There's no one way to serve it. There's no one way to rest.

I had to be taught like In 2020, we rented this house. We had never really done this before, but we went away for a full month and one week. my husband's parents came one week my parents came. So those were not restful. And then we were there for like eight days on our own. And I've always struggled with anxiety. And, so before I went I had been in mental health care, before I went, I was like, I'm really worried. I'm just going to have a panic attack. And she was like, okay, well, let's, let's prep for us. Let's, let's and we had to prepare for it. We, we went through mental exercises of what it look like. She she coached me. She was like, it is going to take at least five days for your nervous system to calm down. And then once you, you know, once your nerves isms has down, you're going to be able to sit in more extended periods of rest. Don't don't shame yourself before you get to that moment, you know. You know. Anyway, it was she like talked me through the mechanics of settling my nervous system and settling into into Sabbath. And, you know, it's funny, when I got there, you know, we made it through the first two weeks of a family. And then I started in on like really trying to calm my nervous system. And I was having I was struggling and I found BlackBerry bushes on the property and it was absolutely God. It was a gift. I would go out there with a bucket and I would pick Blackberries for 2 hours and I would get into those thorns. And but I but I God knew I believe that I didn't I was going to have such a hard time calming down and settling into this quiet space that was super, you know, so rural. And we just picked Blackberries together and I prayed and I, I didn't pray and I just I, could focus my hands on undoing this task and being in nature in, in my mind, could, could kind of continue to calm down. And it was it was one of the most informative and instructive because I am such a busy person and we live in a busy city and it's super hard to find quiet and yeah, I would imagine. Yeah. And so, It was an intensive in rest and Sabbath. And then I was like, okay, I think I get now what this is all about. and I'm better at it and still, I still like I have to work out at it, but. Yeah.

It's funny how God uses those little things to. Almost like a gateway. Yeah. Have you guys ever seen the movie The Secret Life of Walter Mitty? Yeah. I think you remember that scene. Yes, I have. Yes. Sean Penn and Ben Stiller. Do you remember that scene where Ben Stiller staring at the photo of Sean Penn? Yeah. And he's like in the war torn region of Haiti or something. And the photo comes to life, and Sean Penn kind of slowly waves him towards him. Uh huh. I don't know if you remember that scene, but that's how I feel. God works with Sabbath. Like, it's this cryptic. Like, just come. Just come on. And I, like you, shared this thought. I've always thought of the scene in that movie when it comes to Sabbath and prayer of like, it's like, come on, this adventure. Hmm? Let me show you what life is. I love that. Yeah.

This feels like a good segue way into some imaginative prayer. You were saying that this is a moment of to be guided, but if you have the energy to do some guiding. Yeah. Yeah. So So part of the part of the prayer stuff I, I lead people through is one, as I said, the conditions for the prayer so that we can try to kind of get satpathy about it, like restful. So I tell people, you know, turn off all your technology. We can't do that, you know, the three of us. But it's your phone, your computer, your smartwatch. Like anything that buzzes or could distract, turn it off or get away from it. Mm hmm. And then I tell people, find a quiet, peaceful place in your house. Or if you think it's possible somewhere else. But I. I find to be around people and outdoors. Actually very distracting for contemplative prayer. Mm. I like to be in a dark room that is quiet or even maybe that has one of those noise canceling, like, white noise. Mm hmm. I, I first started doing this prayer in the National Cathedral in D.C., and they have a prayer room that I would go to, and there's candles lit, and it's got white noise machines and it's like, okay, there's no disturbance here. sometimes I light a candle as a symbol of, like, inviting them to the flame of the spirit into the room of, like, God is now present. Mm hmm. And I also like to hold something. I have a rosary that a friend gave me from. the branches of grape vines in Israel. And she just meant a lot to me. And I hold that and kind of rub it. It's it's wooden feeling. And some of some of us like to have sensory. Who else? And I find that to be helpful and keep my mind focused. And I typically tell people give try to get guys your best time of day to do something like this. Like if you're a morning person, do it the morning. If you're night owl, do it at night. So we'll begin now. And then what? I lead people through just some short breathing exercises. So you're going to be sitting, sitting up. Good posture. Hands on your lap, shoulders back. And then close your eyes and then just take a long, deep breath through your nose. And then out through your mouth. Now we're going to do another long breath through our nose. Then out of your mouth. Then one more time through your notes. And then out through your mouth. I want you to keep your eyes closed. I want you to picture yourself right where you set, like, a mental snapshot of your current reality. And then I want you to imagine Jesus entering the room. You see him enter? What does he look like? Head to toe. You're naturally curious to visually examine him because you've never seen the most famous person in human history. But here he is. He's walking up next to you now. And he's looking you right in the eyes. What do you feel seeing him? Keep your eyes locked on him and maintain the silence. And as you do this, I want you to start to use your other senses. What does he smell like? A first century Jewish rabbi who walks Dusty Rhodes from Miles lives in a culture that uses fire for heat, light and cooking. Lives in the culture without running water. Now imagine him sitting down next to you. Or maybe he gently places his hand on your shoulder. A warm smile. Maybe you feel the need to stand up. And the king of kings, king of kings embraces you as a father would is grown child. Imagine his touch and how that makes you feel. Maintain the silence of just taking him in. Sit in that moment as long as you can. Jesus gives you an impression or says something to you. Remember it for when he leaves. To end your time with him. There are no goodbyes. Spirit tends to linger. Simply open your eyes. And you can write down any impressions or words he gave you. So that was a faster version of contemplative prayer. Typically. Those prompts, I would pause each pump for like 2 to 3 minutes. So you're looking at like ten or 15 minute. And you know, at the beginning of contemplative prayer, you might be able to keep your focus on that for like two or 3 minutes, but then over time, it can it builds up. But I always ask people to journal down like, what words or impressions did Christ give you? What feelings that his presence invoke? Mm hmm. And. You know, I was on a flight a few years ago and I brought a couple of my journals because I. For a long time. I journaled my prayers and I started reading through my prayer journals. And I was in a moment or in a time in my life where I didn't feel like God was moving. Mm hmm. And I started looking through my journals, and I. I saw a pathway that God was obviously taking me on, and I didn't realize it and was only when I pieced together these different prayers. I had over a number of years that I saw what he was up to. Whoa. Hmm. So there's a little taste of contemplative prayer. Mm hmm. Oh, so good. I know and I never pray like this. And I think it really gets to the. Just things like God walking in the door, Jesus walking in the door, like, is it? If you're actually sitting there in the moment. Yeah. Visualizing it, you feel like that's different than thinking about it or thinking about God just theoretically. Yeah. I always think that you're taking you're taking charge of your imagination. We forget that we're using our imagination as adults, I think, a lot, because we just it doesn't it doesn't occur to us like our imagination. It is like a plaything, but it's it's it's happening all the time. And so if you're praying and you're imagining God looking at you away and it's just implicit, you just do, you know, you're praying and it's just God could be looking at you and all types of unsafe ways when you take charge of it and you're like, What is God? What do you Jesus's eyes look like right now? You know? Yeah. All of a sudden you're you're not only taking charge, but you're letting the spirit take charge of it. Yeah. And you're like, show me. Correct. My correct this vision in my in my in my mind, in my heart. So. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for making time for this. My pleasure. Oh, good. Oh, my gosh. You were just at a deep well of wisdom, knowledge, love and compassion. This has been a treat for me. And I know. And I'm thankful for it. Absolutely.

Just as a promo for Seeds and Water. we exist to help people rediscover faith. And so most of our content is built for what we call spiritual refugees, people who are questioning, doubting God or have been hurt or traumatized by their faith experience. We we want them to find us. And so we produce content. We we we lead experiences and we provide spiritual care. And eventually we want to provide professional counseling. And we also help people find a safe and restorative church community, whether it's helping them start their own at their dinner table or finding one geographically that's close to them. everything that we offer is free. And we're on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook. Wow. Well, it's amazing. Yeah. Great, great. We'll link all of that for for everyone. And I will also myself be following you. Awesome. Awesome. Yay. Thank you so much again. We really appreciate it. Hope you have a great rest of your day and weekend and whatever it holds.