Hey, everyone. I'm Patricia. I'm Elisa. Welcome to the Exile Project. We are so glad you're here. Recently, my son, who is 13 as of yesterday, read 1984, which I probably should have told him it wasn't true. It was a dystopian novel. This is what happened in 1984. He was like, Mom, did this really? Anyway, so one of the things I thought that was so fascinating about it, as we've been discussing the book, which basically destroys how you think about romance, because at the end of the day, people are willing to sacrifice the people closest to them that they love in order to protect themselves. So I don't know. It's a gut wrenching story, and Also, I homeschool my kids. I don't know if that's an important detail. I think it's a good detail. the thing that's fascinating about 1984 is when it was written, it seemed pretty clear that it was in response to a totalitarian government. It was written in the, I think the late forties, early fifties. And holy crap, like, we cannot let Anyone get this much power and control, you know? And then later on, it became somewhat more of a warning about technology, I think. Sixties and seventies people were like, Do we really want to do television in our house? Because that's how Big Brother was watching everybody. So became this kind of like, you know, like we need to be wary of technology. And then in the eighties, as the deconstruction movement in literature was taking off, it became more of a reflection on truth and who gets to hold the narratives of truth And there's these moments in the book as they're breaking Winston, He has to believe, two plus two equals five. He has to believe, even though there's nothing logical or rational or experiential, He just has to believe it because that's the truth he's been given to believe. So it becomes in a sense, it's like argument against truth. and who gets to hold the narratives of truth So anyway, I thought that was really interesting how this story could have different interpretations. As it's being read in different context. Right. And it's so relevant. She's still so relevant. So relevant. So and I and it's interesting growing up. That wasn't really talked about when we reflected on the biblical narrative. No, we were not really talking about our own narratives, you know, individually as well as nationally or culturally, community wise. There was just these assumptions that this truth was the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and that it was always being interpreted the same way. And for the last couple of years, like, I've just been really realized how wrong. Yeah, that is like, oh, yeah. And it's such a pervasive. Thing in the especially the American church,

Yeah. I was going through a leadership course at church and we were asked to read this book laying out a historical Christian view on sexuality. Yeah. and I read it. And at that point in my, thought process around, sexuality and stuff, I was just like, okay, yeah. It articulated everything I already knew about the argument for the historical view of Christian sexuality. So I got to the end of the book and I was like, Okay, yeah, okay, great. Like that. Yeah, I get it. at that point, I was like, this is what I've already heard. I know that this is what we believe. Blobby blue. Okay, great. And my friend comes over and she's like, I don't really like the tone in his book. And I was like, okay. And I was like, well, I mean, whatever. It's I guess it's true, right? And she was like, I don't know. I just didn't feel like he took into account, like, the single community. And she's just, like, crack the door open enough for me to be like. What else did he take into account? there was just like her just being discontent with parts of the book. Allow me to be like, am I allowed to be discontent with some of the parts of the book? Like, if this is theoretically the best articulation I've ever heard of this, does that still mean that it's true or is it just the nicest way this has ever been put? it was just this moment of being like, Oh, maybe I don't have to accept this. piece of conservative church theology that we that I've just grown up accepting to be true and in allow me to be like If the truth it is that Jesus has good news and if this particular part of the conservative Christian Church isn't really getting that at the heart of that, this is good news for everyone. Well, then, maybe we really need to rethink this narrative.

Yeah. But reflecting on the Reformation, the narratives surrounding the Reformation are wildly different than the New Testament church. The context is so different. One of the main arguments for the early church was Gentile inclusion. One of the main arguments for the Reformation was against purgatory.

the problem of purgatory was like when you die, you need to be punished and you need to be purified in order to get into heaven. And it ended up working out really well for the Catholic Church because they could tell indulgences or fundraiser that became a lucrative business. It was a bit of a lucrative, very lucrative. so. Martin Luther's argument for Grace is in the context of purgatory that we are saved through Jesus's death of the cross. And we don't need to pay money or have our family members have money for us so that we can go directly to heaven. So the whole point is, unless we're having the conversation about Gentile inclusion in the context of the early church, we're missing what the gospel means in that moment. And unless we're having a conversation about purgatory or the mass and transubstantiation, for the Reformation, we missed what the good news means in the Middle Ages. And so the question for us now is, what is the good news? and great writes in the day the revolution began, which is such a good book, just about how important it is for every generation to be questioning for themselves, what does this mean for us now? How does it work for us? And I remember a couple of years ago reading a lovely new begins, the Gospel and Pluralist Society. And his argument is that the good news, the gospel is the community of Christ. we become the good news, right as we walk in relationship with one another I just remember reading that and then just like sitting at my kitchen floor weeping. Hmm. Because I was like, ooh, for people in an individual focused society, that does actually sound like a yes. Right. Well, and I think sometimes we hear people say, like, my spiritual life is my own. I am, you know, I don't need the church because I'm you know, it's just between me and God. And that's sort of fine, I guess. And it is fine, like if you're having an individual experience with God. But, but ultimately, if the design is that we are good news for each other and we live out, you know God's goodness for each other, we, have to be in relationship even if it's not like a traditional church setting or, if there's, you know, plenty of good reasons to be taking a break from from that kind of setting. But we need to be doing this with other people so that we can have, alternative narratives spoken over us. Because I think when you're trying to combat popular narratives that are infiltrating their way into your psyche. You can't do that alone because you start to question like you start to talk to yourself in circles, like, well, maybe this is true, maybe this is not true, maybe it's just me. Is that me or is it God? I don't know. Like, and you need those outside voices to come in and, and process through, what's the truth or what's, you know, what's the thing that's guiding us.

So today we really want to talk a bit about Gabriel Fackre's narrative theology framework and in what he suggests is that we have a life story that's significant in shaping us, an understanding of God, a community story, and the culture in the context that we're a part of. And that also is influential in shaping how we understand ourselves and how we relate to God. And then on top of that, we also have this canonical or biblical story that we're trying to make sense of, as, a modern reader looking back on an ancient context So we want to spend time over the next few episodes kind of going at this a bit slowly. And today we want to start with the community story and the narrative shaping this early church, And Reflect on how these stories have been interpreted throughout Christian communities, throughout history. And then talk a little bit about the narratives that are shaping us in our own context and then challenge ourselves to embrace new language or new questions as a way forward interfaith journeys. It's also important to reflect, too, on faith being according to James Fowler, the making and maintenance and transformation of human meaning. So when we're talking about faith, we might be talking about our specific spiritual journeys, but we also might be talking about how we understand ourselves in the world. I think just like we said, that theology is always evolving. but we also want to talk about how narrative is evolving. And our personal narrative is evolving. Our personal understanding the understanding of ourselves is evolving. The community narrative is evolving. And the way we understand it, I mean, we just essentially we don't live in a vacuum. You know, we are always being influenced by the stories that surround us. something that I've thought about a lot while we've been thinking through these next couple of episodes is sometimes that can be anxiety inducing because you don't know where to plant your feet. You know, we're in this very polarized moment in our country, especially politically, where the agendas of the different parties are driven by the narratives that they give us. And oftentimes those narratives are pushed forward by lies, you know, whether they're in the best intentions or the worst intentions or just selfish intentions. You know, and so sometimes I feel like when we're in these narratives around us are we realized we're being sold something or, Somebody is trying to push their own agenda on us. It can feel like, where do I ground my feet? Where do what do I believe And do I have a sense of the truth? You know, can I find the truth? Can I discern the truth? And I think today we just want to speak to this a little bit and say we can look at the stories with open eyes and and ground our feet in the truth. Mm hmm.

I remember Serbia went through this phase when she was maybe like four where she wanted me to pick her up so she could stand on the counter and pick out a cup. And I hated it. I was just like This is a waste of time. I could just hand you a cup. She needed to look at herself and then I remember a friend was visiting and this situation was happening and I was getting annoyed as I was lifting Sasha onto the counter so she could look into the into the cupboard for a cup. And my friend was like, why don't you just lower the cups? And I literally never thought about that. She was like, Put them at your daughter's level. I'm like an established homeschooling mother who spends most of her life really creating I just was like, Why would I not have thought about that? And I think essentially that's what you're saying. It's like the we need community because sometimes we get stuck and it's like, you know, we're stuck in these patterns or these mindsets, right? Or even these, you know, wrong theologies. And it sounds like maybe we're believing that God's really angry or really distant or, you know, we've been hurt. Right? We've been hurt. And then it's we're letting that pain reflect back on to God. And there is something that happens when when we're vulnerable with one another and allow people to speak into our lives, we can see other ways out that we wouldn't have considered on our own. Yeah,

Because we're always interpreting we're interpreting the Bible. We're interpreting our the world around us. We're in you know, we're interpreting ourselves. and we want to be curious about what's shaping our thoughts and our beliefs, because it's not without agenda. And sometimes when we say agenda, it feels so scary because it's someone forcing their thoughts on you. But a lot of time we're just surrounded by lots of different perspectives that we have to kind of be aware of, and we have to be aware of our own perspectives

interestingly enough that makes me think a little bit about the story of the King of Night or this serial Phoenician woman, She comes to Jesus, and she's like my daughter. Is it her son? Oh, is this the dog part? The dog one. Oh, I hate this. I love this story. Oh, that's so funny. I got a guy silk. Okay, then. This is great. This is good, Okay, I'm just gonna end the story first, So, okay, Mark 724 through 30 Jesus left the place, went to the vicinity of tire. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know he could not keep his presence secret. In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an impure spirit came and fell at his feet. The woman was a Greek born in Syria, Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter. First, let the children eat all they want. He told her father. It's not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs. Lord, she replied, Even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs. Then he told her for such a reply, You may go. The demons have left your daughter. She went home and found her child laying in the bed in the demon gun. I think the reason I hate this story is in English. As you read it, it's really hard to get over that Jesus calls her a dog. I see. Okay. I know. I know you have to know your framework, but that's what I and I've never heard anyone preach this story or teach this story in a way that made me feel better about what what it feels like, the implicit tone of Jesus. It's now I've written Jesus enough to believe that Jesus would never be like, Why would you ask me this question? You dog? Like, obviously that's not what's going on here. And also what I the other part that I got, too, without your raw genius, it is is the fact that this woman felt comfortable and safe enough for Jesus to approach him, which is huge, That's one thing I always think about with women and Jesus in the Bible is like he somehow he creates a safe enough place for women to come and talk openly and vulnerably with him. And the second thing is that she rebuts him. He gives her an answer, and she's like, Yeah, but even. Mm hmm. Even, you know, even the dogs. And and so I feel like not only was she did she feel safe enough to approach him not being Jewish, she felt safe enough with him. Like there was some invitation in his presence for her to be like, Yeah, but come on. Like, what about this? So, like, well, okay, well, I'm not. I actually really love the story, and for me, it's been kind of like a pathway to understanding how we interpret Jesus. And I kind of love that you're sharing some of the things that you talk about, because I feel like it's super important. I remember years ago reading Kazuki Koyama book Water Buffalo Theology, and he was Japanese. I was educated in the U.S., went to Princeton and then went to Thailand as a missionary. Hmm. So he's has this, like, very diverse upbringing has lived in a lot of different places. And now he's a very educated man talking to rice farmers about God. And so he is telling this story to some of these Buddhist rice farmers. And he's using Luther's interpretation, which sees in the midst of this moment the Sarah Phoenician woman, maybe this anxiety or the stress about her child, for sure. And that didn't resonate with the Buddhist Thai farmers, because they live in this. practice of living in peace. Hmm. interestingly enough, we recently watched that movie 13 something or other it's about the soccer team that gets stuck in the. Cave when they're spelunking. Not not like we're on this like big kick of, like, character development films with our kids, But anyway, they get stuck super, super far down in this cave. And they are found 11 days after. Although it takes, I think, longer to get a mountain team for two weeks. But their coach is with them and they're meditating. they're sitting there in the dark and he's just like, fear begins in our minds. We're going to empty our minds. We're going to cure our minds. And they just sit in the dark together. Meditating. And I was thinking about how different that context could have been if they were not Buddhist and if they were Christian. Because I just don't know if we've practiced prayer in a way that could right up hold us in situations like that. Right? No. My prayers are like, please, please. Yeah. So anyway. Keisuke Koyama is in Thailand trying to speak to specific people in a specific context and he realizes that Luther's sort of anxiety pathway won't work in this context. So he goes back to the text and what he discovers. in the midst of this story the love of a mother for her child. Being with his neighbors, being with these rice farmers, he has to find the idioms and the language that they are thinking in and out of to be able to bring this message to them. So instead of it being this anguish and anxiety, it's the compassionate love of the mother and her care for her daughter, which brings her to Jesus, his feet. And then then I was reading Howard Thurman, Jesus and the Disinherited, and when he reads that story, he is reading it as, here's this Greek woman this year, Phoenician woman. She is a person from the ruling class and she's coming and making a demand. And Jesus and Howard Thurman's writing in the midst of Jim Crow as a black theologian. And he is writing for people who have their back against the wall. And he sees Jesus as someone who also had his back against the wall. In this social context, Jesus is a poor Jew, a poor rabbi. And here you have this woman from like the dominant power class making a demand on him. And for Howard Thurman, when he reads this story, what he sees is the entry point. And the access point is Jesus chooses. Love and ethic of love. He chooses in this moment, to hear her and to respond, not because he owes her anything, but because because his love is greater even than her demand. Which I just think is interesting for me. When I read this story, I see a woman who has a strong mind. Yeah. Addressing Jesus. And she is also interestingly a Greek. She's using her own context in her own language. Jesus says to her, that the food is for the children, not for the dogs. And in a Jewish idiom, dogs were scavengers. Right. There's that disgusting. Like the dogs eating Jezebel's body in the field. Yeah. You know, like, I mean, dogs were gross, but to Greeks, dogs were pets. Wow. So as Jesus is telling her, you know, about the dogs eating the scraps, he's using a Jewish understanding of dogs as scavengers. And when she responds, she flips the narrative to be like, but the dog's under the table, she shifts the whole imagery.

I think it's just so interesting because there is diversity in in the text, right? Mm hmm. You have Jesus using a Jewish paradigm and this serious Phoenician woman using a Greek paradigm. And yet, in the midst of it, Jesus calls it faith. He calls this disagreement. Yeah, faith. Which I kind of love. I love that. she fights back. she doesn't back down and as a woman who my whole life has felt like learning to stand up. Yeah. In who I feel like I am this verse pathway for me. Like what it looks like to have a strong mind. Right. It is cool because she when you think about it, when you in the way, especially the way you're interpreting the story, he's almost tongue in cheek, saying this is a finite resource. I'm not going to I mean, I'm giving it to you and giving it to them. And she's like, it's not a finite resource. There's always crumbs. There's always like. And she she essentially calls his bluff in a in a that's how I'm interpreting it in this moment is like she calls as well She's like, Love for people is not a finite resource. There's plenty for me and there's plenty for them. And he's like, You're right. You're totally right. I just think it's really shows the power of of looking at. These stories from so many different perspectives. You have someone you know, you have a Japanese author who's looking at it through the perspective of the Thai people, you know, and if you're looking at it, you know, in the Jim Crow era, like these are incredibly powerful perspectives that bring to the text that illuminate something entirely different. Yeah, I think it really showcases how that whole dialog between the text, our context and our and our own human story and how important that is as we're trying to make sense of the Bible.

I was trying to push some ministries to really incorporate some mental health learning or some kind of like other other streams of thought to help illuminate some of the gospel or kind of make an entry way for people into the gospel. And I had a pastor look at me one for me like, I don't want to give anyone anything but Jesus. Hmm. And I was like, well, okay, but these were the gateways for me to understand. Jesus. Right. there's a lot of protection around the text instead of a lot of curiosity. Like, We don't want to ask too many questions. We talked about that last time.

This week was the eclipse, and I didn't even realize that there was a bunch of, like, conspiracy theories going on the Internet, cause I do not look for them for my mental health. But there was apparently, like, lots of talk about what the eclipse meant. And I was like, Wait, do you remember any of them? It was essentially like, Is this the end of the world? Hmm. But it made me think about in the last week, we've had two sort of wild natural happenings we had an earthquake and an eclipse. and major moments in science like this used to incite incredible amounts of anxiety because I had so much terrible teaching around revelation and rapture. And when Jesus was Jimmy, we got left behind. Oh, yes, yes, I read. Yes, yes. I have like scarring memories of reading Left Behind, watching some video that you were supposed to leave behind when you were raptured, like you left it in your house. You were supposed to leave a video. Yes. Yes. Because it was a plane. It would explain to why we were gone. So, my gosh, it was like it was for the people who got. Oh, my God. like if you're watching this video, we've all been raptured and you haven't I do not go down rabbit holes of preparing in doomsday. I'm I'm in a good, stable place. I'm not trying to destabilize. but a friend of mine who knows this about me was like, Did you have any anxiety around the eclipse? I was like, No, I didn't. It was an eclipse, like the sun, the moon and the sun were going to overlap and it would be lovely. And we were just marking the moment where there was no fear around it. it is interesting to think out like. commenting on the end of the world I've been reading the day the revolution began by and he right and we have to kind of understand both the atonement and like why we're saved and also the end goal and what we're saved for. in the time of the early church, the expectation was new creation, like a biblical narrative, is pointing to new creation. It's not talking about people leaving and going to heaven even. It's talking about what God is doing and inaugurating through the life, death and resurrection of the Messiah. we've been pretty derailed and whether it's purgatory or like the Left Behind series like both of those and goals are not are not in alignment with the biblical text or the heart of God. And right. So it's just like fear and anxiety. And he I heard N.T. Wright talk once and he was like, the rapture comes from like one bad reading of one verse. And I don't know whether it's Galatians or Matthew or both or I don't know. But like he was, like it was he was so wonderfully dismissive of it, like in the best, most comforting way and not condescending because I don't feel like and he writes ever condescending. He was just like, Yeah, I don't know how we got here, This is this is a new problem, not a not a Bible. I love when he does that so you know, what are we saved for What is the narrative of the church? There's like that. Oh, we're something about in culture but not of culture. Oh, yes. Oh, in the world. Not of the world. Right, right, right. So then there's this idea of like, do we separate from the world, right? Or it's like, are we supposed to witness to the world or are we supposed to transform the world or are we supposed to preach to the world? So it's like how you define parts of these narratives, shape how you respond to the world you live in. Right? Right. Yeah. at the same time, the way we do church in America is attraction. Or so it's like, come in to these places where you can meet God and be transformed versus, Hey, we're going to go out, as witnesses to what God's already doing. Like, I just feel like it's a different focus. So I do I do think that unpacking that is important,

And I think that's essentially what we're saying, that like in the midst of mapping out our stories for one another and as we're both deconstructing and reconstructing our faith, language is incredibly important. And she writes that in every gathering and every generation, it's important that we are seeking out the gospel, that we are working on deeper understandings of foundational Christian truth. And he uses an example of cooking, you need someone to know how to cook in order to survive, someone with an understanding of nutritional truth, right? To make sure that we're well-fed. When Gareth and I took over the coffee shop, we became business partners, which was something we hadn't been before, and we needed new language for it. we had been raising children together. We had managed a household together. But being in business required new language. We had been, in a way, centered from what we knew, and we were having to recenter with new tools and new a new perspective. Right. And I think that's essentially what theology helps us to do. It helps us to step back and look at the big picture not just the narratives in our neighborhood, but what are the narratives in our church? You know, are we feeling like we belong, like we have God's love in our own context? Or is our narrative shame or is our narrative, you know, try harder, do better, you know, or is our narrative, you know, like you're not good enough? So I think that like while it's important to kind of to situate ourselves in our context, whether it's cultural or our church tradition, because only when we're acknowledging where we are can we really pose alternatives for where we want to go, right where we think we're going. Yeah. comparing what Jesus's narrative is to our, you know, our our current cultural narratives One of the things that feels important for me about what Jesus brings is that everybody is included. Everybody belongs. One of the ways I was thinking about. was the Beatitudes because it's his declaration of who is blessed in the kingdom, who means something in his kingdom. And then, sure, everybody does. But he particularly points out those that are suffering, those that don't have any status, voice power. he's saying that these are the people that actually do have status and a voice and a perspective to bring into the kingdom. And then he summarizes the whole thing by talking about us being salt and light. And and you were saying, like, what are we saved for new creation in the end of the Beatitudes? He talks about us being a city on the hill. Like, essentially, Jesus in his ministry establishes the new creation. And we are that new creation. We are meant to be the new covenant carriers. And when we do that. It means good news for everyone because it should mean it should look like the mourning or comforted that the meek are given a voice and given power. The, poor are cared for and fed So if we are carrying the good news, we become the good news. And then and then we see the kingdom continually enacted and these these narratives that ultimately oppress. They are wiped away. I'm going to link a couple of teachings about the Beatitudes that for me, have been life changing because I just love them so much and they really quantified what it meant for Jesus to bring the good news to us in our context because. It just ultimately means that. we are all empowered And I think as we're being curious and we're unraveling, just go around your feet in the knowledge that you are so deeply loved that you belong no matter what. Mm hmm. And that we can. And that we can go back to the text as a safe space that will reflect that truth. And so, if questions come up, how does that. God's looking at you with love. So I feel like as whatever narratives you're unpacking or questioning, we want to invite you to to consider this other one. And that's that you're really, really, really deeply loved.