Hi, everyone. I'm Elisa. And I'm Patricia. Welcome to the Exile Project. We are so glad you're here. Yesterday I had a very weird sort of specific. Mental breakdown that just involved me getting more and more books and reading really random portions of them to at least time. And bizarrely, this episode where we want to try to talk about just theology and define some terms, has proven to be like a bit difficult too to just do that. Yeah, I think it brings up it brings up for me this feeling of like, well, who am I to talk about theology? Yeah, because I, I grew up in a tradition where women were empowered. I kind of carried this until recent years that I would just not know about theology as much as. Yeah, as men. And there was something in me that was like, I could not understand it. like there's this pretentious c use of language that's not necessarily super accessible, you know, like, how often do you you just a normal life, say eschatological, right? You know, right. And then and or so or numerological or like so I feel like this language becomes somewhat of a barrier. It's like it's like talking about God is for people who have. Giant, giant bookshelves and like lots of degrees and armchairs and ivory towers and the rest of us, by the way, that is actually Patricia. Well, no, I know I that is house is made up of bookshelves full of wonderful books. Always feel inadequate. I know I that's the thing. But that's the beautiful point in it is like that's such a lie over all of us and that she has a degree in fine arts, she has a dream theology and anthropology, which is hilarious because as the question of like, what is astrology, you should be super easy for me. And instead of like 95 books here and I'm just like, No, Elissa, we should really use this person's definition and this person's definitions versus the revolution. and we will because. Well, and that's the part of it is we love theology. Yeah. And I think one of the freeing things about being at this point in my life is taking that and taking the power back in. That word is saying, I have a theology. I'm confident in my theology and I love theology. Yeah. I remember maybe like a decade ago or something, just starting this wild goose chase of reading the Bible. And it was so fun because I started bringing all my questions and I just remember, like, researching and I mean, the amazing point about being human right now is we have, like, the world at our fingertips. So, you know, I can have a question and all of a sudden be able to see the way it's been interpreted throughout history. Thank you, Google. Right. So I'm sitting there researching all this stuff and I just honestly felt it was such an extreme experience, like the presence of God, with me and God saying like this deep feeling in my heart that God was saying. I love it when you love me with your mind. And and it was such a freeing, like way I can really do this. Like, and I've always had a mind that has asked questions or wanted to understand. And feeling invited by God into loving God with our minds was such a important moment for me because that's I'm such a thinker. So it wasn't just it wasn't just some people get to be picked to think about these things. It was like we are all invited to know God like this. Yeah.

Dorothy Soloway is amazing. she writes a book called Thinking About God, and she is talking about systematic theology. So she does kind of want to. Acknowledge different perspectives on. the big questions that Faith asks, and she divides it into three theological frameworks Orthodox, liberal and radical. But there's a lot of different ways that can happen. But anyway, she introduces her book as just an invitation to think deeply about God. That theology, essentially at its core, is learning to love God with our minds. And she makes this point between kind of comparing mineralogy with theology and how you can study minerals and become an expert about minerals, but with God, it's it's very different. you can't gain all the knowledge there is to gain about God and then become the God expert. And that's it. she suggests that that idea that she even could know all there is to know about God, it's blasphemous because God is unknowable. Yeah. So I think that's an interesting thought to kind of begin with.

So

Saul writes How can one grasp the experience with God, of which the people in the Bible tell that God encounters them, challenges them, requires something of them, gives something to them, refuses them? How can one grasp this living but many sided experience in a system with the help of technical terms and logic? And I think it's a good point because she's locating theological thought, not in terms and methods and technicality and logic, but she's rooting it first in experiential language. Right. That's so true because that's what the Bible is. It's people's experiences with God that then informs how they think about God, and then that informs how we think about God. So and then we have our own experiences with God that inform and shape our theology. So theology in and of itself is, is always evolving. And somehow up until this point, it has felt very stagnant. Like you have a theology and you teach out of it. Like that's how I think of most preaching in America is like I am interpreting and disseminating our theology to you when that may not actually be what theology is. Right. That sounds more like orthodoxy. Like the like. Right. Like the emphasis on right believing or right faith, which feels like often I feel like the two are confused because it's like our theology is we are for this or against that. And it's like really theology is thinking deeply about God. It's the study of God. Right. That's so interesting. So can you kind of just briefly talk about orthodoxy for a second? I think that orthodoxy is The emphasis on right believe verses heretical beliefs or wrong beliefs. So there is this real emphasis on believing the right thing. And that kind of comes out of some of the early church arguments in Constantinople. And as as you're seeing churches, the church split, you have this like Eastern Orthodoxy, which is choosing to believe in a little bit more of an experiential, in a sense, like kind of mystic understanding of of God. And then you have this sort of like this Western split, which kind of locates knowledge a bit more rationally. Phillip Clayton in his book Transforming Christian Theology. he he really counters that whole model by not putting belief statements like statement of belief first in in Christian community but putting belonging first. So you join a family, you join a community, and then you behave together. You feed the poor, you stand in worship. You live lives of radical service and love. And then in the midst of that, your beliefs are shaped together. But normally, from an orthodox perspective, the, the first thing would be belief. Hmm. Belief. And then and then you kind of sign on to the belief system and then you're, you're choosing to behave together, go to church on Sunday or whatever, and then ultimately, like that leads to belonging. So it's a little bit of a different framework and honestly There is this level of orthodoxy that is in most American Christian evangelical culture that really is trying to. Gate. Keep anything that feels like it could be the wrong kind of belief. Yeah, it feels like culturally we have been more focused on right belief than we have on this evolving experience with God or even this The knowledge that everyone can have an experience with God and then have some kind of perspective to bring to the table, where instead we kind of protect the voices that feel the brightest in our context. And I think. Part of evolving theology is really being cognizant of what voices are shaping our theology. I was reading this book last night called Abuelita Faith, and it's a Cuban-American woman who writes it And. She makes this statement that the most profound theologian in her life is her ability. Hmm. I grew up in a small town and my church was reformed. Presbyterians were Calvinist on Sundays I went to a charismatic youth group and I was part of a Baptist school. so on Wednesday night or youth group night, I was fighting with those friends about the gifts of the Spirit and Satanism, whether it was for today or not. And on Friday, my Baptist friends, I was fighting with predestination and free will. And, you know, and so for me, growing up, theology really was about protecting the right beliefs and making sure I was ready to battle anyone who didn't believe the right way. And also not just battle them, convince them that I was that I was right. I hear people say all the time, like, Oh, I didn't grow up Christian, I was Catholic. And part of like Catholicism is technically Christian. So it's just this interesting thing of like, you know, we're constantly trying to trying to figure out who has the right beliefs. Yes. And it's interesting because in the New Testament, it feels like the right belief is Jesus is Lord. So first of all, we're just being invited into theology and network orthodoxy, right? and heart of evolving theology is is deconstruction, because it's about examining the things we believe about God and continually reworking them with our experiences in the knowledge that we have.

And I remember recently reading this quote by David Dark and he talks about holding everything up to the light of good questions. And I just felt like that cracked something open in me that how like questions are so important and that this invitation to think deeply about God isn't just to think the right things about God, but to think about Him and love him with our minds. Right. I, I think about my own evolving theology, and I think so often when I had a new thought about God that felt, felt combative to what I presumed the majority Christian Church was thinking, or even in my own church I would keep it to myself because it felt like this wasn't something to be discussed. Yeah. I think sometimes the asking of the questions felt dangerous because or at least this is the this is how I sort of embodied question asking in my context is it felt dangerous because you might just ask the the right question, wrong question, the right question to unravel the whole thing. I think it's because the image we have sometimes when we think about knowledge is like a pyramid, right? And you pull out one of those blocks, the whole thing crumbles. And I think Rob Bell in one of his books suggests an alternative image. And it's a trampoline, which I love, but just the invitation to be come jump with us in the joy of rich question asking. Yeah. I was recently reflecting on the books that started to shape my journey in college, because that was really when I started to believe maybe that God was okay with questions and then that if I ask questions, I wouldn't crumble. This whole thing that you built and and three books, I read that shaped me. One was blue. Like jazz and jazz are so good, so good. there was a scene of, the author on a a secular campus. I think they're in Portland or Seattle. and they're apologizing for things done in Jesus's name. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you can apologize. What a rich posture of humility, right? then the second was Rob Bell Velvet Elvis. and again, this idea of like, you can bring God your questions, it's not going to crumble everything he he expects you to have them because he's the God of the universe. That's what I remember them book. It's been a while and the third was Ragamuffin Gospel by Brendan Manning the whole book essentially repeats the phrase God loves you over and over again. And I remember I was so taken by it and I was so excited about the idea But. It didn't feel like enough. And I was like, No, this can't be it. And I was like, apparently, Brenan Manning, doesn't have a very strong unit. Okay. Books that shaped me. I remember a friend giving me Mystic Union by John Crowder I. Remember reading his book and just being like, this can't be true. And essentially one of his main arguments is that the Reformation didn't go far enough, that he's a reformed mystic. He believes wildly in the grace of God and God's overwhelming love, and that we are set free into freedom, that our whole Christian journey isn't just about trying to combat our sin. And a lot of what he said, I just I remember reading it and just being like, I don't I don't know if any of this is correct. It just was like such a different model of of faith. And I do think it's interesting, like just that idea of like theology thinking deeply about God was really wild in terms of just like creaking the door open to you really haven't even begun to explore the goodness and the beauty of God. And that led me to begin to be interested in what other Christian mystics or charismatics, people who I had been a bit more dismissive of because I had this rigid system of what I thought was right or not. I was willing to listen to more of these people on YouTube as my point, you know? And I was like walking around the neighborhood, pushing my kids in a stroller and listening to this woman and a woman write, wow, talk about experiences with God's spirit or something like that. Which also I was like very into having like I'm like, yes, please, I will have that. Pushing the stroller. And being open in this time of my life. Being open to the possibility that I did not have a corner of the market theologically, that there was so much more for me to understand. And this woman begins to talk about how she has these, like, regular trips to heaven. And I'm just like, okay. Like, I don't know. I'm not that's not something that I've ever created space in my belief system for. But anyway, she's talking about this. And, you know, there's all these different places like flower land or, you know, feast land or whatever. I don't remember. But it was like, Oh, these are wetlands. And I was just like, Oh, sounds so theme park. Like, that doesn't feel, I just felt like that part of me that wanted to, like, fight for, right. Thinking like is this a biblical interpretation of heaven? And and then she says something about O land. And I was just like, hold the thread. I'm, you know, I'm out jell o plans. Come on, could we have some reverence, please? And then she said you would not believe how many seven year old boys go wild when they hear about Jell-O land. And I felt God in the depths of my spirit be like, there are places in me that can only fully be understood, understood, experienced, appreciated by seven year old boys. And I just felt like I was like, That's how big I am. I'm like, I'm so much bigger than you have ever conceived of. There's parts of me that are specific to seven year old boys, and I just I was just gutted by that.

I was going to a chiropractor couple. And they were so in-tune spiritually, not what you might say Christian of thought, but they were like spiritually super attuned and they would tell me things. They would come and I would be like, Oh, I just feel so tired this week. And they'd be like, You know what? I feel like you really need to let go of that, of that expectation on yourself. Like they would say words that I would maybe associate with being prophetic or like really, really spiritually in tune. And I was just amazed and I felt like I had evolved in my thought enough to be like, anyone can hear from God, anyone can be spiritually tuned no matter what, you know, where they associate on the spiritual spectrum. But, but still, I kind of had this fairly conservative thought about God and so was laying on the table once, and they had done that kind of thing where they had come in and said something super true about my set of circumstances and how was manifesting in my body. And I was like, Dang! And I was lying on the table. And then I started to pray, which I often did, because it was a moment of quiet and moment of breath. And I was like praying. And I was like, God, I just I'm so grateful for their spiritual attunement. I just wish they would acknowledge you as God. And I wish that they would, like, realize that these these things are coming from you and your spirit. And I so clearly hear God be like, But isn't it kind of cool that they associate me with the universe? Like, isn't the universe just like a little bit more akin to kind of what I'm like

it was just this moment to expand my imagination and even think about God. In this, like the vastness of the universe which felt to me up until that point. So for the spiritual mystic crowd that weren't rooted in the Bible. Yeah. theology in and of itself has, has a, has invited me to hold other people's experiences, you know, given me a capacity to be curious with other people.

Tell us a little bit about your personal theology and what shaped it. I. Align more with liberation theology in terms of this preferential option for the poor and tracing all the ins and outs of all of it. there is this moment in Catholicism where God begins to be located outside of the structure of the church, and and their understanding becomes in a sense, a little bit less attraction or a little bit less about coming in to meet God and a little more missional in terms of going out to care for the brokenness in the hurting in the world. And I am new to exploring this. Like in the in the last couple of years, I've of discovered more about this. But in a sense, I feel like I've had such a heart for feeding the hungry that it's kind of like finding language to explain where my heart's been for a long time. And one of the like kind of frameworks for liberation theology is this praxis model of reflection and then action and then reflection. So it's, it's instead of having like, oh, we're going to have our, you know, dogmatic statements that we're all going to believe. It's like we're going to we're going to love our neighbors. And that's going to shift maybe how we feel or what we believe as we're hearing them reflect on how they see God. And then that's going to inform how we act and how we behave. And it becomes more of a dance then, strict dogma. So I. love that idea of God already speaking. I love the idea of mission not going out to, like, bring the world my truth, but really going out to witness how God is already moving in the midst of my neighbors. Yeah, which is so cool. I just want to point out for a second because I know Patricia really well and. God's image is reflected in you in that way. So it makes sense. That's how you see God, you know, like. before you even realized that this was who God is. This is something God put in you to find him this way. Like your personality your love for food, your love for justice, your love for radical hospitality is so aligned with God's heart that it makes sense that your theology is shaped through these things. And then you find this about God. And then and then it has evolved so much that you found it to be radically true about God in the text. So it's so cool because. It's almost like you found God inside yourself. And then found God outside. Yeah. Like he was guiding, putting these heart desires. Yeah. I remember, like, back when I was fighting with my friends about secessionism. Then they get the spirit, you know, it's like, oh, if I. If I do believe that gives the spirit a real then I want the flashy ones, right? Like, oh, like healing or some demonstrative Holy Spirit eating. And I remember people being like, you have the gift of hospitality and just being like, Damn. Like, you know, I love feeding people, but I'm on board, right? Flashy ones too. And I remember this moment, though, where I was like, wait, hospitality isn't just this like, well, you get the you get the bottom of the barrel gift It was like, this is something that so radically is God's heart. And then he's inviting me to see him as a God who. Yes, he's inviting me to see him who are God, who cares about food insecurity as a God who's constantly eating with people. And food has been really such an entry point for my own theology to evolve. Yeah. Um, Marty Feldman, from Being a discipleship, said that rabbis have been wrestling for years with the question, Why Abraham? Like, why did God choose Abraham? And he postures And I guess this is also and some rabbinical thought is that it's Abraham models the radical hospitality of God and he references the story where Abraham sees the three strangers coming, jumps out of his tent, has them make like an inordinate amount of bread that so much more than they would require. And he points out that this is and I'm so happy I get to do this right now. It's right after he's circumcised, like, so he's sitting in the cool of the day or he's sitting in the in the openness of his tent, healing from a surgery. He sees these people, you know, approach his tent and he jumps out, runs, which I imagine would be painful and and then creates this lavish meal. And so it's it's this. And we see it it's not just this one moment of radical hospitality. We see it in Abraham over and over again and even in his lineage. It's not perfect. I love that you pointed out, though, just that the immediacy of that covenant in his flesh. Mm hmm. And then. And then? Then the response of being that great fatality. I just. Yeah, I think that's beautiful.

For me, when I think of what shaped my theology, it's questions that are Do they belong? God, they have to belong. I a missionary kid And so my whole life was steeped in church, bound up in orthodoxy and in doing things in the name of Jesus. And so I grew up in this, and I also grew up pretty sheltered and in an island far, far away. And so when I went college, I was a theater major. It was a Christian school, and they were and so then I was also still steeped in orthodoxy. In fact, in my school you couldn't be queer or you'd be kicked out. but I was still a theater major. there was not going to not be the queer community in this, no matter whether it's a Christian school or not. And so was the first time I was in relationship with with the queer community, having these deep discussions of faith and experience. and I went to my pastor and I was just like, can you explain how this happens? Like, I don't I felt like if we were Christians, then we wouldn't like you couldn't be. you couldn't be both. You couldn't be both Christian and like, yeah, one negates the other which But these questions kept coming to me and I would ask them of people that I thought knew the Bible way better than I did. And they did to a degree and they had no answer. And but my core question was, Does everyone belong? Right? And is this invitation for everyone right. And and ultimately if it's not, it's not good news. 

Then this became this, like, secret theology that I had because I was like, I'm choosing to believe that you belong no matter what. I'm choosing to believe that God wouldn't begrudge you when he when he holds your pain. And and I think that what that's evolved into is realizing God's deep compassion and love for people and God is so radically safe and a safe place to be, a safe place to bring your entire story. I think it's such an interesting point to to make out, like the safety of God. I remember thinking singing songs from the Psalms about God as a refuge or God as a hiding place. And I think I thought that that might mean that I would stay safe, but I don't necessarily know if that's like what it means, that God safe. I think it means, like you said, we are fully embraced and loved, and he is with us. Mm hmm. That that that it is. And I promise that nothing bad will ever happen to us. But. But that we can come as we are. Mm hmm. And be. Be loved. And I do think that that's so radically modeled in the gospel writings like again and again, you know, like people with leprosy or the guy who's cutting himself legion and living in the tombs. And like you have all these people who Jesus pursues or Jesus heals or Jesus invites into relationship and. I think that's a really wild way to look at this story. Yeah. And even thinking like reflecting a bit on the the Magnificat and like Mary Song. And here's this teenager, right? Whose life is being, While the dissent heard by this message from this angelic being, she's going to be a teenage pregnant mother. Right. It's like this kind of wild woman, but like she's standing there singing her guts out. Yeah. You know, and She's singing about how God fills the hungry with good things. This heart for people who are oppressed. The heart for people who don't normally get to be the people the ones announcing the good news here's this young woman I just love, being able to trace the journey of our beliefs. Mhm. Evolving and coming to find a different understanding of God finding God's heart, that it's that God is more interested in who we are and who were being. Mhm. Rather than just believing the right quote unquote things. Absolutely. And so today we're, we really wanted to empower you to embrace your own theology. question it I think if we could leave you with a challenge, just what are things that you believe that you feel like you've never been able to do? Totally. And I think to encourage you that we found a God who is deeply loving, loving first, who is very, very safe, who cares deeply about the oppressed and cares deeply about freedom. and we encourage you to get curious about the God who loves you and to do it through lots of different stories and voices. Yeah. So thanks so much for being here. We'll talk to you

Love it.

Everyone. I'm Patricia. And I'm Alisa. Welcome to the Exile Project. We're so glad you're here today. We want to talk about theology and kind of give some basic definitions and talk about maybe what we mean when we say evolving theology. Yeah. We also want you to feel empowered with your own theology, right? I think sometimes as women, we have felt kept out of the theology circle, and that's untrue. And so we want to empower you also to say, I have a theology and this is you know, this is how I'm thinking about it right now.

And I kind of love that idea of. Lying in a chiropractic table and, having God speak to you there. It was like you having this intimate, personal, specific. Interaction where you're thinking about God is being readjusted on, right? Yeah. Nice. That was nice. I

And one of the things that really changed is for me, honestly, probably like eight years ago, I was hosting this. Arts Brunch and I'm always hosting things. So that was not out of the ordinary. And these two women showed up like 45 minutes early. And I was just a little flustered, but I was like, Come on in, come on in. I'm taking the trash out, making brunch battle than we're chatting and chatting. And, you know, they asked a question about Gareth or something, so. So after about probably 30 minutes of chatting with them, I asked them what kind of art they did, and they both looked at me. You know, they're like very confused and they're like, we're not artists. And I was like, Why are you here? And they were like, We're we're Jehovah's Witness. Yeah. Anyway, I invited them to stay to brunch, and they did. Then one of those women introduced me to her friend, and she and I had weekly coffee dates for like a year. It was like up until they took over the coffee shop. And I remember going into it thinking, Oh yeah, it's going to take me like three weeks to iron out her wrong thoughts. Right? You know, because I'm still thinking that theology is really about, you know, she's got to have the right belief system in a sense. Right. And in the process, I realized, I mean, she had such a heart for God, voracious reader of the Bible. Like deep, deep faith. And we would have these conversations. It really challenged a lot of what I knew, because I felt like there was a lot that we agreed on, some things we didn't. Clearly, I don't think that the only people being saved, 144,000, quote unquote, Jewish, you know. Right. Unix or whatever, you know. But what I saw in her, what I saw when it went from just being, you know, Jehovah Witnesses to a woman who believes in God with a varying belief about God. Honestly, I saw in her deep faith. Yeah.