You're listening to The Exile Project with your hosts Elisa Booker and Patricia Manwaring.

All of our human experience. Adds up to the lens with which we interact with other humans, with our partners, with God, with the church, with our theology. But if I'm using my imagination to even get near perfect love, then I need to use the people that have been the best versions of love in my life. Yeah.

Hi, everyone. I'm Patricia. I'm Elisa, and we are so glad you're here. Welcome to The Exile Project. In our first couple of episodes, we're telling you some stories that really are pivotal in our journey of faith. And we've been so excited to prepare these for you. And it's been really healing has been yeah. To go through them. And so yeah we're going to jump in Yeah. And so In this week's episode, Alisa is going to tell us more about her story and just take us on a journey of how she is learning to read tone the voice of God. Yeah, I'm super excited. my deconstruction journey has been very slow and very long. One of the things that this episode in the story is about is the implicit landscape. And so I'm really passionate about this. It's a lot of where my my teaching comes from because I work with kids, I'm an educator, and we're ruled by this implicit landscape in our lives I pulled a quote from Psychology Today and it and it's this. It says, We learn to socialize in accordance with the tone and context that our culture and society has imposed on us. As a result, we learn to maneuver the intricate web of interactions in the world with a specific set of cultural coatings. And so all of our human experience. Adds up to the lens with which we interact with other humans, with our partners, with God, with the church, with our theology. The way that I understood God, the way that I understood how he related to me, induced severe full body anxiety. I lived in a state of fight or flight for nearly 35 years. What do you think? Like, where do you think that that came from? After lots of therapy and blessings on the mental health community. I have a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful therapist. It's for my body theology. And from my family of origin my family didn't have any resources and what to do with the emotional landscape. And so when big feelings came into the picture, I didn't have a reference Also, our parents create an image of God in our life they're a first authority. And my parents are truly wonderful and amazing people, they don't have tools to deal with their emotions. They can't give me tools. And then if I'm triggering big emotions in them, you know, it's just a self-fulfilling cycle of of unhealthy and so that kind of so my image of my parents created this image of God and the image being that your big feelings. Yes, my big feelings aren't welcome. And the my behavior is the most important cares mostly about how you behave. Yes, And what I think for me, one of the cornerstones is I actually don't matter. It matters how people perceive me. that's become central that's one of the reasons I got into church work because it was a way for me to continually feel like I was doing the right thing towards God. it was the best way I knew how to keep safe. In this relationship that I had with a God that I thought cared more about what I did. Cared more about me taking care of his name. That's how I understood God. So it's like You represent me in a way that makes me look good. We're cool. And so There was no safety in messing up And so all of these things built on top of one another. This implicit understanding of God needs me to know enough about the Bible to protect His name and to do good things for him and for other people so that people think he's good. It doesn't actually matter what the truth is. Yeah. And that's a really weak premise. It's a really weak way to live and it's honestly super anxiety inducing. I mean, I guess I'm a little anxious just thinking about it, I totally spiritual things like growing up in a culture where, you know, like the best thing you could do for God was be a missionary, which I totally it's like it's not like what it looks like daily. Just be a normal human. It was like if you really wanted to show that you loved God, you were going to do ministry work and and yeah, there was this like be ready at all times to give an account I remember we had this neighbor named Christie and it's I spent a lot of time trying to proselytize her. I was in elementary school, I don't remember when we went to a planetarium and saw the stars. And I was in a Christian school. And so this program was definitely evolution based, you know, or big bang theory based. Fine. Well, now it's fine. It wasn't fine then. And at the end I had like I had so much anxiety through this entire program because it was they continually brought up the big bang. And I was like, We don't believe in the Big Bang. We believe in Genesis. and at the end, the science lady at the museum. was taking questions, And I raise my hand. And I just felt absolutely this was necessary. This was necessary from the God of the universe to do this. I said, We don't believe in the Big Bang. We believe that God created the world in Genesis. And this woman said, Well, Maybe your God needs to be bigger. I was angry and mortified. And as I and I've carried that story with me just having so much shame and embarrassment and like, I don't know, feeling like I need to do more for God. But now as an adult and as a parent, I'm like, No. I stood up and I was like, Hey, girl, go girl. It's okay to do that. You did. That was awesome. Or No one had my back. No one made me feel better after that moment. They just let this adult woman come on, you. Yeah, come at me. And I never got any comfort. Reassurance. I mean, we got a good job. It was like. It was weird. I was both embarrassing myself and sticking up for God at the same time. I don't know. But those are the things that shape us. That's what these are the experience that shape our implicit landscape that then we're carrying is 40 year old women into the Bible, into the church experience, into our relationship with God. And it matters like we're rational, fully formed, you know, brains at this point. But but the things that continually form our perspective are these eight year old people in the Science Museum. That makes me think about when I was a kid, I was driving with my grandfather to Florida and we'd spent I mean, he, he just like chain smoked and drove like 24 hours. It was a one shot deal. It was pretty impressive, honestly. But we were driving back and I was tasked with being the person to keep him awake, which was ridiculous. But my twin sister and I, because he was clearly capable of just chain smoking his way through. But I'm sitting there with him and I start to smell this awful smell, and I. Remember someone telling me that that dead people smelled or like. But I couldn't remember if it was like they started to smell before they died. And I thought that it was like you started to smell really bad before you die. So I'm sitting in the car and there's this awful smell, and I was just like, Oh, my gosh, my grandfather's about to die. Oh, my gosh. And and so in that moment, you know, I'm like, I need to make sure he's right with the Lord, because he may not have been because he may not have the time. So I'm you know, I'm starting to get, like, really stressed. How old are you? Sorry. I probably maybe like 11 or ten. Okay. the thing that we do as parents and make sure other people get it. And so and so I'm sitting there and I ask this question and I'm like, Grandpa. Do you believe in God, And he he's like it's like, yeah, I believe in God. And my little heart was like, Oh, we're going to be okay. then he says, this thing that was so confusing, there's this pause and he's like, I believe in God. And I also believe in Mickey Mouse. And I was just like, what the. And then, you know, so then I'm just, like, wracked with, like, well, how do I theologically make that work? You know, what does that mean? Me? He means like both of them are not real. Like I was just. And then as I'm struggling to figure out, like, what the hell you're talking about, I realize that the thing that I'm smelling is actually this giant garbage truck we'd been driving behind, like. So more or less right. My grandfather was not dying. It's actually dead. People smell after they die before. And, um. But. But my lens was that we needed to get saved so we could go to heaven. Versus an entirely different lens. Which salvation happened at the cross? Yeah. And we're being invited into living fully alive lives where we join God in the renewal of all things. It's an entirely different lens and it makes us treat one another an entirely different way because the focus isn't just says in is prayer real quick so that your your your future is secure. It's I want to love you because you are made in the image of God. And I think you're amazing. And there's a lot that I have to learn from you. And we just want to, like, explore God together. It shifts. It shifts it from being like, I think I have something you don't have to being like, I think God's already. You know, moving and speaking in your life because your maintenance image and your beautiful. Yeah. Also, I just love the idea that you thought your grandfather was dying. He was driving. Oh, my gosh. And your concern wasn't for you. The safety of you. You're Twittering. Oh, no. In the car, it was like he's got to go to heaven. That is so accurate. I can't even tell you how accurate that feels. I shoot about like you figure being the grandmother. Could you give me a quick lesson on how to drive in my car? He pulled over in case I need to drive. You know, it's like, let's make sure you're going to heaven. It was a really interesting, Well, okay, so in these episodes, we are the first couple. We're going to read actually parts of our story because They're so central to who we are and we've already written them out. We just really wanted to kind of honor them and ourselves by by reading them. So before I read my story, I want to read you this quote by Henry now, and it's from his book In the Name of Jesus. I read this, you know, a long time ago And it was a moment where I was like, oh, my gosh, that's it. This is this is the key. This is this is what I'm missing. So let me read it and then I'll read you my story. God is love and only love. And every time, fear, isolation or despair begins to invade the human soul. This is not something that comes from God. This sounds very simple and maybe even trite. But very few people know that they are loved without any conditions or limits. This unconditional and unlimited love is what the evangelist John calls God's first love. Let us love, he says, because God loved us first. The one that often leaves us doubtful, frustrated, angry and resentful is the second love. That is to say, the affirmation, affection, sympathy, encouragement and support we receive from our parents, teachers, spouses and friends. We all know how limited, broken and very fragile that is behind the many expressions of this second love. There is always the chance of rejection, withdraw, punishment, blackmail, violence and even hatred. Many contemporary movies and plays portray the ambiguities and ambivalences of human relationship. And there are no friendships, marriages or communities in which. The strains and stresses of the second love are keenly felt. Often it seems that beneath the pleasantries of daily life, there are many gaping wounds that carry such names as abandonment, betrayal, rejection, rupture and loss These are all the shadow sides of the second love and reveal the darkness that never completely leaves the human heart. The radio goodness that is the second love is only a broken reflection of the first. And that first love is offered to us by a God in whom there are no shadows. Jesus's heart is the incarnation of the shadow, free from his heart flows streams of living water. As I found out, I was pregnant with Benjamin. I had an idyllic picture of how the birthing process would go. I knew the midwives I wanted to use. I was set. I walked into the practice for a little orientation. And there she was, midwife Sylvie. She was a beautiful older woman with perfectly silver, curly hair and hands that look like she had seen a million babies born. She dripped with the joy that comes from a long life of witnessing miracles. She was Mother Earth embodied. I left after that brief meet and greet and whispered the prayer, Let her deliver my baby. There was no assurance of this because there were five ish midwives on staff and Sylvie held more of an overseer role at this point and did far fewer hospital shifts. It was a long shot, but nevertheless she was the dream. As in, near the end of my pregnancy, one of the younger midwives went on maternity leave herself, and into the practice came Barbara. She was filling in. She also had silvery hair and came with a no nonsense, tough love vibe. I felt intimidated by her, maybe even a little naive and foolish. I felt like a silly first time mom whose rosy ideals of labor and delivery were met with a realistic perspective that comes from years of the highs and lows of the birth world. Then the day came. It was long. It was painful. It was not going the way I'd hoped and dreamed. As we showed up at the hospital, We found that Barbara was the midwife on call. I had one moment of disappointment, and then I saw her. She was the silver haired earth warrior. She immediately made me feel safe. I knew she was there for me. Me. Not anyone else. Not even my baby. For me. After many hours in this process, facing many more, I was in the hospital room, facing the epidural decision. I didn't want one. I wanted to be able to do this all on my own. I wanted to be enough. As soon as I made the decision to get one, I started to apologize to myself, not just to myself, but to anyone who was within earshot. I felt like a disappointment and a failure. Barbara looked at me with white hot intensity that I felt into the deepest part of my core and said, Why are you sorry? This is a good decision. You are making a great decision for you and your baby. This is you being a mother. I don't remember much after that with Barbara. Time stood still. I nodded and cried. That moment burned into my soul for all of time. She was a prophet. She told me who I was. She spoke life over me. I will always love her. Shortly after I received the blessed epidural. It was a shift change. Barbara told me she was going home and that Sylvie would be delivering my baby. Sylvie came in and I'm pretty sure she was floating on a cloud, she said. Benjamin, in her arms, told me I was a professional at this baby having thing. She called him Bubba and said he was one of the most beautiful babies she had ever seen. She told me to have more. She was the presence of the Lord. I can still see her framed in the sunlight, bouncing off the tall towers in Manhattan. On that magical day. Then I was it was eight years later. I was struggling because the only place I felt completely safe was for an hour a week sitting in my wonderful therapist's office. I cognitively knew that sitting in prayer, reading the Bible or worship should feel safe. But my body disagreed when in those spaces I felt on guard or preemptively anxious, I would have a full trauma response trying to read the Bible. If I read it on my own, I would fall asleep. One Sunday during the pandemic, our pastor was preaching through some 73. This is one of the few psalms I'm fairly familiar with. He talked through David's felt experience. I always thought this song was boastful or proud, but Caleb reframed it to illustrate how David was is humbled by God's love and care for him. How David realized that it was only by God's grace. His end wasn't the same as his foes because they all had made Many of the same mistakes. David found comfort and safety in God's presence. I was dumbfounded. I realized that every time I opened the Bible, I was injecting a tone onto its pages. I would read the biblical authors through this condescending, judgmental tone. It further led me to realize that I did this in prayer as well. There was an implicit way I was expecting the Lord to be looking at me and a tone of voice in which He was responding. Spoiler alert it wasn't compassionate or kind. The way I saw God's eyes and heard God's voice was an amalgamation of all the most judgmental and hard moments of my life. It was a super mix of 100 white pastors who didn't really know me. So I sat on my couch one night. I sat on my couch and he took a risk. I said, God, I'm going to imagine a version of you that makes me feel safe. Can you help me formulate one? And out of nowhere, there was this beautiful, wizened woman sitting with me. Her hair was silver and her hands were soft. And her eyes were for me and proud of me. She looked a lot like Silvie and Barb. I felt safe. I felt held. I felt at home. I love the idea of thinking about God as a mother, and I think that's definitely something that's not done enough. I think that ultimately the way we talk about God is through metaphor. And I think it's also important to recognize the fact that we are post rational or, you know, we're rational and we understand everything cognitively and with our minds. But the people who are writing the biblical narratives, it was image based, you know, they're talking about God as a rock or they're talking about God is living water. They're talking about God as a lamp, you know, or as a shepherd or as a father. And I think we tend to define God, God as father without without realizing that it's a relational metaphor to describe it and really in a particular context, how to imagine who God is not defining God as just male. And the idea of like the mother ness of God I think is really important. Yeah, it's it's been truly revolutionary to me. Like the first few times I'd ever heard or read this female imagery around God, it just it completely changes the way I felt in my body because I could feel I feel so clearheaded often with the women in my life. I feel strong and safe. And I, you know, for just because of my story. That's not, in general how men make me feel outside my husband. You know, I and so if I'm in a room with men, I can articulate myself the same. I don't feel the same, you know, it's just not the same kind of felt safety in a room full of women, especially women who I trust. And so I thought. What if God is supposed to reflect the best version of love that I know on this earth? That's what no one is saying, like. Well, no. No one is saying, God, the best version of love on this earth can't even reflect their love of God. So. But. But if I'm using my imagination to even get near perfect love, then I need to use the people that have been the best versions of love in my life. Yeah. And that. That breakthrough came from the females, the strong females in my life, the women who are for me and love me and also me as a mother. Because I know my intentions for my kids. I know them. I'm not perfect. I know that my love is imperfect. It is the second love for sure. But my intentions to love my kids are perfect. Like, I want to do it perfectly. I can't because I'm human, but I really want to. So if God wants to love us perfectly and he can't, He God has the capacity to love us perfectly, then what might that look like? And this was a gateway into that. And since since this day, I've prayed to God in a gazillion different forms. A lot like one day I was like, okay, God. I was just, like, super tired. And I was like, what are we what are we doing today? What form you're coming in? And I swear to God, if it was a Labrador, it was just like this big, comforting, furry Labrador that came and just sat with me. Big because it was a it was a it was a comforting feeling I could feel in the moment of God's spirit. And like you said, we're always looking at God through metaphor. But if we can cognitively do that and say, I'm going to do it on purpose with metaphors that I know. Yeah, you know. Yeah. I mean, the biblical writers are doing the same thing. Like God is at one point described as a mother bear, you know, coming after her cubs or like a mother hen. And I looked up the mother hen thing. Jesus uses this picture of a mother hen gathering her chicks under her wing and something I don't know, because chickens don't make a great metaphor for me as someone who doesn't have a ton of expression and chickens that like, I guess when they're threatened and even if there's a fire the chickens will like or maybe this is a bird, people, you can write us. they will corral or collect the babies underneath their wings and that will protect them. Even if there's a fire, that mother will sacrifice themselves to preserve those babies. And as Jesus is describing his love for Jerusalem as a mother hen, he's kind of foreshadowing like that Jerusalem is going to burn, but also like God's presence is gathering and preserving and protecting his people in the midst of tragedy. So, I mean, I think there's like that just, you know, for people who aren't used to envisioning God as anything other than a father, there's a biblical precedent for it. And also just touching on a little bit of like Jesus, the language Jesus uses when he's describing his relationship to God, his father, which is revolutionary. Right. Because he's like he's modeling a relational metaphor. Right. But we think sometimes when we hear that intimacy and I don't necessarily think that that's what Jesus was saying, like he was using language above Father, that's intimate. But the reality is in this world. the father. It was a sonship, an inheritance, like passed from father to son. Hmm. mention difference of rights. And in her book, Sex Difference in Christian Theology, just about the importance of image and likeness and how in an ancient context that would have been understood, passing from father to son through inheritance law, through just that idea of Sonship. And even like the writers of Hebrews writing, saying. Jesus as the exact representation of the of the invisible God. So in any age and context, even understanding fathers and sons I grew up in a tradition that prioritized male leadership and male headship, and actually men were invited to the Wednesday night Bible study. But it was okay if women didn't come because the assumption was that men would go home and teach their wives and I grew up as a kid who loved the Bible. and I, to the best of my ability, was trying to live it out. I remember one time my mom being like, Hey, go clean your room. And I was like, me, the Lord sent me if I do not clean my room today and my mom just like pauses and she's like, Why would you say that? And I was like, What? I'm reading the Bible. I mean, it's like, I don't know, it just it was just like I lived it. I lived. So I'm this kid who's raised in the Bible. I'm a somebody who's motivated by a story constant, living in my own imaginative world, which, you know, was obviously impacted by this biblical narrative. And yet there was nowhere there wasn't a place for me, for my voice, for my questions, for who I am as a person. I've always been a leader, and yet I'm part of a tradition that denied women any form of leadership. So it was just for me, my innate identity was constantly feeling like I was trying to be who I felt I was and then feeling guilty about it and trying to be like, wanting to be like submissive, submissive, submissive. Just felt like that was a one word. Yes, drive womanhood. And so going back to the text and reading, you know, there's these two different creation accounts and we just tend to prioritize the creation account of humanity in Genesis two, because men are the dominant leaders versus like if we if we chose to live out the creation narrative in Genesis one, there's a mutuality. There's, you know, God created man in his own image, in the image of God, he created male and female. He created them. You have this interestingly beautiful reflection of God that's not male. I remember reading something about Michelangelo in the Middle Ages and how he painted that amazing painting, the Sistine Chapel, God, and Adam, all that beautiful stuff and. threat of this book was talking about how eve is right there at the center of the Sistine Chapel under God's heart, and there's this, like, subversive element of Michelangelo painting even in the Sistine Chapel, considering women weren't even allowed to enter the Sistine Chapel for, like another 400 years. I feel like part of my journey has been understanding that it's okay for me to love God with my mind and the fullness of my personality, you know, not to have to, like, apologize for that. a even the Psalms, you know, the scientists are constantly imaginative. Right? Right. We we forget that we turn faith instead of imaginative language into dogmatic statements. So I think there's there's a clear precedent for. a Many different metaphors to explain how God loves, who God is, the character of God. And I think that, we are in a moment, in our own context, where we need new metaphors And I think one of those for us is, is God as mother and goddess as female. And I think you pulled some of those verses, right? Yeah, I pulled it from Isaiah, These are three verses from Isaiah where God is compared to. Another. Here's Isaiah 42. verse 16, Now, like a woman giving birth, I cry out a gasp and pant. I will lay waste the mountains and hills. And this is part of the suffering servant song. So God's talking about like really making that path straight. It's a it's in the midst of a song of praise, of deliverance. And the, the imagery of, like, is God. In the pangs of giving birth. And then in a zero 4915, can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion in the child she is born, though she forget. I will never forget you. She see, I have engraved you in the palm of my hand. And I think that that's really interesting, too, just for building that idea of like the Trinitarian kind of model of suffering. The suffering. God. that God is like a mother. Unable to forget the baby, her breast, but then also saying, I have engraved you on the palms of my hand And then Isaiah 6613 as a mother comforts her child. So I will comfort you and you will be comforted over Jerusalem. I think if we were going to go back and reframe God as father for us in our context and if it's got his father really insinuates to us birthright if we relate to God as Father, we should relate to him as we are inheriting the same that Jesus inherited. And Jesus talks about that like you will do. You know, you will do more than I did. Or, you know, we are colors with Christ like there. And so if we if we're going to associate with God as father, then remember that you have completely inherited the kingdom so good. And then remember that you can relate to God in the metaphor that makes you feel safe and loved and seen and known. I just want to thank you so much for spending this time with us and hearing my story. It's so dear to me. that you took time to bear witness to it So thank you so much. We would love you guys to connect with us. we're really interested in hearing your stories. And we are great long emails. That's one of my passions. So we'd love to hear hear your stories. Yeah. All right. We'll see you soon.

You can explore more about this episode, including study notes and recommended resources on our website. The Exile Project dot com. Follow us on social at The Exile Project or share your ideas with us. You can email questions at The Exile Project.com. This podcast is produced by Armstead Booker and recorded in Brooklyn, New York, with audio engineer Gareth Manwaring. Thanks for listening.